Lore Forum Decorum - Just What is Meant by Good/Bad Faith?

[Theodric]

I want to highlight this as exactly the sort of rhetoric that is causing a negative downturn in the quality of discussion on the lore forums. This is an accusation of the people behind the posts, rather than a disagreement with the posts itself.

The phrase "certain posters" is the poisonous part, because it directly refers to the poster rather than the post (ie an ad hominem), and does it in a weasel-wording way where nobody is sure whether it's referring to them, and the person who wrote "certain posters" is able to neatly avoid answering any responses due to being able to go "but I wasn't referring to you, of course". It's the same type of argumentation tactic of going "some say" or "it is said", positing a nebulous antagonistic "other" whose membership is implied, but never stated.

Name the people you are talking about. Be specific. Let them respond to the accusation. Provide a strong case, with evidence, of what you are accusing them of. If actually naming the posters who you are referring to is against the rules of the venue, then don't make that argument in the first place.

You're free to walk away from my previous post with that particular take if you so wish, though in my view it simply reinforces my earlier point!

I'm not going to name and shame because it's against the site rules and nor am I going to remain silent on an issue that is so abhorrent.

The posters in question know full well who they are and given that I was pretty specific about the comments in question - namely 'death threats' and 'homophobic comments'. It's not really a broad accusation in itself. It's quite clearly a specific one and not really anything that can be attributed to an innocent mistake.

Had I said 'certain posters get a little too aggressive', then that would be a broader statement that would realistically leave a lot of people wondering if I was referring to them given how vague such a statement is by comparison.

[YianKutku]

Had I said 'certain posters get a little too aggressive', then that would be a broader statement that would realistically leave a lot of people wondering if I was referring to them given how vague such a statement is by comparison.

Such as, for example:

There's also a number of interviews containing commentary from the development team explaining that it is all a matter of perspective, though even putting that aside it's entirely fictional so I remain baffled by some of the emotional pleas and not so subtle attempts to frame people as being 'wrong', 'insane' or 'bad' for liking, rooting for or coming to sympathise and understand specific characters and factions. The prudent approach, I rather suspect, would be to agree to disagree on subjective plot elements.

Once again, I also feel obligated to point out that just because a handful of individuals on an increasingly niche forum do not like particular plot points or lines of speculation that does not necessarily mean that the story told is 'terrible'. We'll see how Endwalker actually plays out in a couple of days, at any rate.

Well said.

It's unfortunate really, but I suspect the issue is that certain individuals struggle to separate fiction from reality, also refuse to grasp the nuance involved and cannot accept that people have differing interpretations of it and/or different story preferences (a lot of people like games as fairly unconstrained "what ifs"), and so attempt to shame others for disagreeing with them... so be it, but it's not exactly the sort of person I see any value in engaging.

[Iscah]

Had I said 'certain posters get a little too aggressive', then that would be a broader statement that would realistically leave a lot of people wondering if I was referring to them given how vague such a statement is by comparison.

But that is the sort of thing you say in other debates, and I've certainly been left at times trying to work out whether (if not feeling certain that) your comments are directed at my opinion.

And even regardless of this – if you're clear you're talking about people who respond on the level of making death threats – then what do you suppose we should do with that information?

The fact that someone awful enough to make threats against you is disagreeing with your opinions does not say anything about the opinions in themselves. It is not proof that their interpretation of the story is wrong and yours is justified through persecution. Nor does it say anything about the character and motives of anyone else who shares their opinion and/or disagrees with yours.

So – what is the point of telling us about this, if you can't say who it is and we can't do anything about it? What does it add to the debate?

[Theodric]

I'm not particularly interested in indulging some of the usual attempts at what I think to be gaslighting and moving the goalposts. Rather, I think that itt should be enough to acknowledge that persistently harassing people over a lengthy period of time and sending them death threats and homophobic comments over fictional characters in a video game is quite simply inappropriate.

Neither of the comments quoted from either myself or Lauront are anywhere near as grotesque as such events, nor do they ring untrue in the context of this particular exchange.

Though, once again, I'll repeat my prior point:

The most fascinating thing I observed was that certain posters would repeatedly launch thinly veiled attacks and sometimes direct personal attacks at fans of the antagonists, implying all manner of horrible things about their person and real world morality. When finally those being assaulted had enough, even a minor quip in response would be treated as some deeply horrific crime and personal attack.

The last line in particular is, perhaps, the most important.

But that is the sort of thing you say in other debates, and I've certainly been left at times trying to work out whether (if not feeling certain that) your comments are directed at my opinion.

And even regardless of this – if you're clear you're talking about people who respond on the level of making death threats – then what do you suppose we should do with that information?

The fact that someone awful enough to make threats against you is disagreeing with your opinions does not say anything about the opinions in themselves. It is not proof that their interpretation of the story is wrong and yours is justified through persecution. Nor does it say anything about the character and motives of anyone else who shares their opinion and/or disagrees with yours.

So – what is the point of telling us about this, if you can't say who it is and we can't do anything about it? What does it add to the debate?

It's relevant to the conversation at hand. I find it interesting that other posters have made similarly vague comments, such as pointing out that 'some people' have told them that they're not comfortable posting here any longer for various reasons. Those posters weren't pushed for more details or criticised for being vague. So whether it's intentional or not, it certainly seems like this is little more than an attempt to try and brush it under the rug and pretend as if it hasn't happened.

At any rate, I didn't come here to argue. I was directed to this thread by someone else over Discord and opted to post my thoughts. Along with a clear disclaimer in my prior post that people are free to take it with a pinch of salt.

[Iscah]

other posters have made similarly vague comments, such as pointing out that 'some people' have told them that they're not comfortable posting here any longer for various reasons. Those posters weren't pushed for more details or criticised for being vague.

That's because that is a very different usage of "some people". It's a protective, anonymising, "someone feels upset by this situation and doesn't want to speak up, so I'm doing it for them". It's a call to discuss a thorny issue – hopefully in good faith and honestly – to make the forum a more enjoyable place to participate in. We don't need to know who it is to engage in the debate.

Remarks like "some people are too serious about [plot element X] and their behaviour is unacceptable" is a thinly veiled accusation and without knowing who is being talked about and what the actual problem is. Everyone interested in X feels accused.

Also, you've completely dodged the actual question.

It's one thing to "agree to disagree" but if we need to air the disagreement again and again in every thread before we can settle down and actually discuss the events at hand, there doesn't seem to be much agreement involved.

[Theodric]

Also, you've completely dodged the actual question.

On the contrary, I addressed it via my previous post:

I'm not particularly interested in indulging some of the usual attempts at what I think to be gaslighting and moving the goalposts.

I'm not interested in tone policing, either for that matter. You're very welcome to approach me in-game or over Discord if you want a genuine discussion with me in regards to your specific concerns. Is that something you would be interested in? No worries if not, I'm simply not inclined to waste time on endless back and forth quoting that, frankly, has very little to do with my initial point of concern.

I posted my experience to get it off my chest and forewarn others of a glaring issue within this particular micro-community, not to have others condemn me for being a victim of such abhorrent rhetoric.

[Vyrerus]

I'm not particularly interested in indulging some of the usual attempts .

I would ask you to directly lance the boil and name at least some names of people no longer around that made those attacks and slanders (talking about those who are no longer accessing the forum surely isn't against the rules in speaking of their forum persona). Surely there is at least one? And surely they upset more than just you, because as far as I am aware the FFXIV playerbase has a high number in the LGBT pie slice. Homophobic remarks would not have gone unnoticed or unrebuked. Not saying that makes it right, or anything of the sort, but even one name from the past could help shed light on the present. How did we get here to this stand offish page and these indirect ways?

I also can't see where in the rules it says we cannot reference each other by names, but perhaps you refer to the idea that if you did name them it would be seen as slander? If they made death threats though, then everyone needs to know. Let us know.

But I mean, a personal grievance like this going unaired directly. Does it not fester in your chest? Speak freely, please.

[Theodric]

I would ask you to directly lance the boil and name at least some names of people no longer around that made those attacks and slanders (talking about those who are no longer accessing the forum surely isn't against the rules in speaking of their forum persona). Surely there is at least one? And surely they upset more than just you, because as far as I am aware the FFXIV playerbase has a high number in the LGBT pie slice. Homophobic remarks would not have gone unnoticed or unrebuked. Not saying that makes it right, or anything of the sort, but even one name from the past could help shed light on the present. How did we get here to this stand offish page and these indirect ways?

I also can't see where in the rules it says we cannot reference each other by names, but perhaps you refer to the idea that if you did name them it would be seen as slander? If they made death threats though, then everyone needs to know. Let us know.

But I mean, a personal grievance like this going unaired directly. Does it not fester in your chest? Speak freely, please.

I'd rather not risk naming specific names, even in the off chance that it might get me in trouble. I've heard tales of people being banned for all sorts of seemingly innocent comments and I value my ability to continue posting on this forum.

With that said, I will attempt to be as vague as possible about it.

There's the occasional crossover with some of the posters who come here and who participate in Discord servers that have a channel devoted to discussion about FFXIV's story and lore.

If someone had some time to waste and were so inclined to do so, then they could seek out such channels and put my forum name into the search. After digging through the frustrating misspellings of Theodoric as Theodric, they'd see some remnants of what I have been referring to.

Naturally, the moderators of the Discord servers in question nuked the worst of it for being inappropriate - as is to be expected, hence why I suggested that such things be taken with a pinch of salt.

I'm not one to sit around compiling evidence to catch other people out. I also value my privacy and don't like putting anything but my forum or character name out there - with that in mind, I'd rather avoid posting anything that could be attributed as being personally identifying information.

All in all, my initial post was really simply to draw attention to an issue that has been a problem for a while. People are free to take it for what they think it's worth. It's no skin off of my nose.

[Iscah]

You're very welcome to approach me in-game or over Discord if you want a genuine discussion with me in regards to your specific concerns. Is that something you would be interested in? No worries if not, I'm simply not inclined to waste time on endless back and forth quoting that, frankly, has very little to do with my initial point of concern.

And how would turning this into a private discussion end the "back and forth"? It just changes the arena.

And quite frankly, this conversation here is not one I want to be having in private. It's about hearing how everyone feels together, not having you take on each person who disagrees with you one-on-one where nobody else can see it.

[Theodric]

And how would turning this into a private discussion end the "back and forth"? It just changes the arena.

And quite frankly, this conversation here is not one I want to be having in private. It's about hearing how everyone feels together, not having you take on each person who disagrees with you one-on-one where nobody else can see it.

So there isn't any further that we need to say on the subject, then?

Granted, there would be nothing stopping either of us from taking screenshots or copying and pasting messages said in a private chat elsewhere but it would have allowed us to have a discussion in a one to one environment with no busy bodies gleefully cheering on the drama or joining in with petty attempts to catch either perceived 'side' out.

I believe it is an offer I have extended in the past and as mentioned, you are under no obligation to embrace it. I simply assumed that since you cared enough to pick apart my posts regarding a sensitive issue, you were open to actually working to resolve it. Was such an assumption false?