Other MMOs and their History

[strawberrycake]

As the title suggests I wonder how many people are interested in the history of other MMOs and how they got here to where they are today. Atm I can say I've seen the rise and fall of several MMOs, and these things happened for various reasons with each.

I'll use the lovely buzztopic as an example:

WoW was not as bad as it is today, and personally(I can be wrong) I feel many like to harp on its failures vs its success. I doubt it has to be said to many but A lot of the current state of XIV mirrors a point in time where WoW was much the same. From devlopment choices, to a massive influx of players. Even now, similar issues have been talked about with XIV, from time gating, to adding more hardcore content,to what a new job should be. These may not be WoW and XIV specific, but given how Yoshida has developed the games, they've been similarly handled.

So I guess my question, and point of this topic is, if Yoshida is willing to learned from WoW, good and bad, why does the community constantly resort to tribalism, over talking to WoW players about what can be done to keep XIV from possibly going down a similar path. Learning from them the history of how the players affected that game, just like Yoshida is learning from the live history of the Development and company side of WoW, and how that affected the game.

I personally think we should make it a point to do so as players. We never know what the future brings and it only take a few things changing for similar issues to arise within XIV.

I doubt I have to say it, but no, not a troll thread, just an honest thought I had since WoW vs. XIV is literally everywhere now a days.

Edit: As I can see trolls, or people who just refuse to get my point, I can word things better.

Why is it hard for XIV players to try and sit down and understand why someone who's played Rift, Aeon, Runescape, ESO, SWOTR, And Yes, as much as you hate to see it, WoW, left those games for 14. If their game was doing bad, if it was the company, the players, both?

In that games history, is how it changed possibly for the worse, or changed to make large amounts of players from those games come here.
(This is not implying any MMO or game I mentioned is doing bad or that large amounts of those players are playing XIV now, just using them as examples)

You can take XIV and WoW, and change them out for other MMOs. It really doesnt matter, WoW was just used as an example, given my personal knowledge of that game, and how it was used in XIVs development.

From understanding these games, and how they got here, it could help players understand XIV better, and possibly help make it, an already p great MMO, into one that has fewer problems, or allow better player feed back. Things like that

[HappyHubris]

Since WoW was the dominant MMO for a while, the FFXIV community developed a bit of an inferiority complex and has been overcompensating ever since. It's a shame, because FFXIV could learn quite a bit from WoW about class design, encounter design, game responsiveness, PvP, and other areas of mprovement (conversely, WoW could learn from FFXIV about compelling storylines, characterization, and music).

When a community gets too evangelical about a game, it's developers can ignore deficiencies.

[Penthea]

Since WoW was the dominant MMO for a while, the FFXIV community developed a bit of an inferiority complex and has been overcompensating ever since.

When a community gets too evangelical about a game, it's developers can ignore deficiencies.

This is a very vocal minority. The community would be a very different place if the game was commonly treated like some sort of religion. Most people just want to play a good game.

And lets be honest here while WoW has some great things that FF could learn from and adapt for itself, some ex-WoW players come to the forums to suggest major changes that would make FF little different to WoW. They clearly don't want to be playing FF if that's what they're asking for. I'm fine with people preferring something but to essentially complain that FF isn't WoW is just silly. This unsurprisingly never gets a good reaction from players who enjoy FF hugely because it isn't WoW. And all this just feeds the stupid tribalism.

I came from WoW and while it has some things I would like to see in FF, it has other things that would be extremely concerning to me if they came to FF. But I don't like this WoW vs FF train. I would prefer for multiple successful mmorpgs to compete with one another because competition drives innovation. And I would like all of these games to be distinct because everything being the same is boring.

[Jeeqbit]

why does the community constantly resort to tribalism, over talking to WoW players about what can be done to keep XIV from possibly going down a similar path.

What can be done to keep XIV from going down a similar path is to keep Yoshi-P. As long as we have Yoshi-P most of us are not worried.

[strawberrycake]

This is a very vocal minority. The community would be a very different place if the game was commonly treated like some sort of religion. Most people just want to play a good game.

And lets be honest here while WoW has some great things that FF could learn from and adapt for itself, some ex-WoW players come to the forums to suggest major changes that would make FF little different to WoW. They clearly don't want to be playing FF if that's what they're asking for. I'm fine with people preferring something but to essentially complain that FF isn't WoW is just silly. This unsurprisingly never gets a good reaction from players who enjoy FF hugely because it isn't WoW. And all this just feeds the stupid tribalism.

I came from WoW and while it has some things I would like to see in FF, it has other things that would be extremely concerning to me if they came to FF. But I don't like this WoW vs FF train. I would prefer for multiple successful mmorpgs to compete with one another because competition drives innovation. And I would like all of these games to be distinct because everything being the same is boring.

As an ex WoW vet myself whos been playing since ARR, I agree, I went back for Legoin, BFA, and Shadowlands, and as a whole the way some systems were handled would be great for FF. I've personally been wanting PvP to be handled similar to how WoW does, smaller groups, more dedicated game types and its just a quick play where you can get any of them over having to wait a specific times of the day to even get the macth you want. I've always personally thought that would make PvPing more fun, along with more rewards being added.

I can also in the same breath say that yeah I don;t want XiV to become WoW, I just want some things to be handled in similar ways to that the game feels more varied. I would also like for some of the newer MMO players to learn about how MMOs got here, and to not just kinda mindlessly go with the vocal minority when it comes to XIV and WoW

[strawberrycake]

What can be done to keep XIV from going down a similar path is to keep Yoshi-P. As long as we have Yoshi-P most of us are not worried.

That is very true, but no one knows what the future holds and what may happen when the many other members who Run SE eventually leave their current positions. We have to remember that this is company with it's own politics. I doubt we'd lose Yoshi P, but it's always good to be knowledgeable of other games and their situations, how those games got to where they are now. And this isn't to be a doomsayer either, more so trying to encourage people to be more knowledgable of how MMOs became what they are today.

[Maxilor]

Since WoW was the dominant MMO for a while, the FFXIV community developed a bit of an inferiority complex and has been overcompensating ever since. It's a shame, because FFXIV could learn quite a bit from WoW about class design, encounter design, game responsiveness, PvP, and other areas of mprovement (conversely, WoW could learn from FFXIV about compelling storylines, characterization, and music).

When a community gets too evangelical about a game, it's developers can ignore deficiencies.

Having up until recently played both games (Dropped WoW like hot shit when Shadowlands tumbled out) let me say that besides PvP, FFXIV at this point is just the better game hands down.

Community wise however, both games are horrible in different ways.

While WoW's Community has rampant toxic negativity, i'd argue FFXIV has the opposite issue with rampant toxic positivity.

A sort of Stepford Wife like environment where everything is fine and we all need to get along except when someone disagrees with me in anyway in which they become an 'other' and must be punished.

Still, considering my options FFXIV's positives far outweigh the negatives.

[strawberrycake]

Having up until recently played both games (Dropped WoW like hot shit when Shadowlands tumbled out) let me say that besides PvP, FFXIV at this point is just the better game hands down.

Community wise however, both games are horrible in different ways.

While WoW's Community has rampant toxic negativity, i'd argue FFXIV has the opposite issue with rampant toxic positivity.

A sort of Stepford Wife like environment where everything is fine and we all need to get along except when someone disagrees with me in anyway in which they become an 'other' and must be punished.

Still, considering my options FFXIV's positives far outweigh the negatives.

Of the few things I would change, I can agree PvP and the toxic positivity are some of those things. I find the community to be very uncanny at times in that regard.

[DamianFatale]

Since WoW was the dominant MMO for a while, the FFXIV community developed a bit of an inferiority complex and has been overcompensating ever since. It's a shame, because FFXIV could learn quite a bit from WoW about class design, encounter design, game responsiveness, PvP, and other areas of mprovement (conversely, WoW could learn from FFXIV about compelling storylines, characterization, and music).

When a community gets too evangelical about a game, it's developers can ignore deficiencies.

Something I want is better zone design. They take way too many shortcuts and have too much in the background that is off limits. For example; that new island in Thavnair that has all the docks and boats. For some reason you can't visit it, but its my favorite part of Thavnair. Why cut off such a gorgeous place?

Then there's Ala Mhigo. They hyped it up so much and leave it off limits beyond a dungeon. :/

[Alklios]

As a WoW player from 2006 to 2020, i say people need to truly consider is that WoW players now are MUCH different from pre-cata players.

WoW players today do not cite what made the game incredibly successful following additional early expansions.
Accessibility, achievement, making our own path.

Back then we did not need a carrot on a stick to play. We max geared an alt? We rolled another one. Much more people did both PvE and PvP.

We did not need borrowed power and hundreds of hours of grind every quarter of something not essential to class or gear before. We did not need devs and others telling us *how to play*. We just *played*.

The current WoW generation has been hellbent of supporting lootboxes and tossing hundreds of hours into unhappy forced play time. Years ago, I never would hear "I need to grind why else would I play?" And then you find out they came from HD runescape theirfirst MMO and they had no idea what made a decent MMO for all. So y'all skip cutscenes and run into a "timegate" which is the same schedule we've had here for years.

My deduction is that the fact that these Legion first gen players that supported borrowed power, mythics, and a carrot stick over their head needed an influencer to tell them a game was good, might not have the faculties to deduce what is a well made game.

They had unmade a WoW shaped by the players that wanted out of the grind. Out of the controlled one track play style that stifled them. Only to be caged by artifact power. Azerite power. Covenant reknown. Instead of fetching other pursuits and the other wonderful side things such as FF has, we had to sit and grind part time job, some of us career PvPers, doing stuff we hate.

Why would i play, doing something i hate?