Endwalker was a great mess(SPOILERS)

[KizuyaKatogami]

And I'm pretty sure I already pointed out your screenshot showed nothing more they're dressing wrongful act with pretty words, and you're ignoring it.

Like said, there is a researcher during the MSQ who clearly adore and respect Venat a lot, and because of that he literally said he can not wait for the day she kill herself because it will be beautiful. That's a mess up thing to say, calling it beautiful doesn't make it so, and because such perception is the norm in Ancient society that's why it is a problem.

Im not ignoring it, its just an incredibly ignorant statement. They did the most they could to respect the death of creations and pass them on. Thats more than can be said for most of the people in the sundered world who slaughter animals left and right without a second thought. The problem with a lot of your and multiple people in this thread's line of thinking is youre looking at things and comparing them to irl morals and values and way of living. The ancients are completely different from that, theyre a fantasy race. Someone else already explained the venat statement well so i wont go over that but ive literally given you in game citations. The ancients did more than again, ironworks did which is something you seem to be ignoring. Dont forget ironworks was willing to sacrifice literally an entire timeline to bring the wol back. That goes against the themes of the story but they still did it and wrote it. Its a case of its okay when the protagonists do it but when the antagonists do it, its wrong. I really fail to see how its a wrongful act, especially after seeing in Pandaemonium that not everyone just outright gave up on failed creations. Lahabrea took them in, in an attempt to help them and fix them. They didnt just immediately kill them off youre being purposely oblivious when my citations literally state they cared for all life. So much so they sacrificed themselves to bring it back.

Were you not paying attention to the whole post Elpis cutscene? Venat admits she is a monster and nothing she did was just or righteous, it was necessary for Man to move forward and overcome despair. She doesn't consider herself a hero or good, she did what she thought was necessary and accepts the condemnation for it, one reason she didn't show her primal form was so she wouldn't be the embodiment of hydaelyn but that the crystal itself would.

Emet even comments on this after he's "revived" saying that Venat brought Man further then they could have; he says this after coming back from spending the past what 20k years living through the sundering and then regaining his memories from Elpis.

The problem with all of this is, i think people would hate this part of the story less if the game itself actually paintd her as what she herself says she is. What she did was wrong shes a monster etc. Instead the game goes out of her way to paint her as some benevolent sparkly queen goddess who could do no wrong, which even her minion alludes to. It's kind of a slap in the face especially when Zodiark was the one who was really keeping everyone safe and he gets 0 credit. It's all hydaelyn and venat. I think its a big case of either the writers playing favorites or them writing the story that way as to not make the players angry who like her.

[Raven2014]

You are equating killing oneself in our terms to their act of ending their life.

Because that's exactly what it is? I mean ... that's why Herme was so reluctant to take over the Fernadel's office due to what it is implying for the current office holder. Venat was CLEARLY taken back and uncomfortable when she was pressed for "her own end". She is someone clear want to continue living, yet being pressured toward her death. And yes it is death, call it whatever you want, but if look like a duck, walk like a duck, and quak like a duck then it is a duck.


Like I said Herme and Venat represented the "normal" view toward death to contradict the "warped" view of the ancient society. I mean ... Milteon was doing what she did also due to a warped view of life and death. She's not killing the world out of malicious intent, she think she's simply saving men from the suffering of living.

Im not ignoring it, its just an incredibly ignorant statement. They did the most they could to respect the death of creations and pass them on.

The problem is ... they are the killer more often then not. If someone murder you because they think you're unfit for society, would that be ok as long as they "pay respect" to you afterward? Since I do believe you're ignoring the MSG, here is the snippet from one of the quest in Elpis:

You learn that a third-generation charybdis is unable to fly due to its aetheric balance leaning strongly towards water. Though the observer in charge wishes to revert the specimen and its kind, having deemed them a lost cause, Hermes is loath to give up on them, and offers to transform in order to guide the creature skyward. The proposal is met with shock and dismay, for transforming in public is considered vainglorious and unseemly. While Hermes seems willing to bear the shame if it means saving the creatures, Emet-Selch is not wholly convinced. It is then that Hythlodaeus conceives of a solution. For this, he sends Emet-Selch off with the charybdis, while you and the others remain to assist him with the necessary preparations.


While the observer is impressed that the charybdis can in fact fly, he remains of the opinion that it would be better to simply have their concept adjusted. Hermes, however, is adamant that they continue to be given a chance to prove themselves a worthy addition to the star, and his underling acquiesces before taking his leave. With that, Hermes declares all his present tasks complete, and you set off together back to Anagnorisis.

This clearly show the contrast on the view of life between Herme and the society norm.

[Rokke]

Because that's exactly what it is? I mean ... that's why Herme was so reluctant to take over the Fernadel's office due to what it is implying for the current office holder. Venat was CLEARLY taken back and uncomfortable when she was pressed for "her own end". She is someone clear want to continue living, yet being pressured toward her death. And yes it is death, call it whatever you want, but if look like a duck, walk like a duck, and quak like a duck then it is a duck.


Like I said Herme and Venat represented the "normal" view toward death to contradict the "warped" view of the ancient society. I mean ... Milteon was doing what she did also due to a warped view of life and death. She's not killing the world out of malicious intent, she think she's simply saving men from the suffering of living.

Disney managed to teach small children the circle of life so I didn't think I'd need to explain it on the forums.

lions in the lion king: Antelope eat grass, lions eat antelope, when lions die their bodies nourish grass. Their death is an important part of the circle and that circle keeps their lands healthy.

ancients in the unsundered world: Live a long life to better the planet, die and send soul into the lifestream, soul finds new life in reincarnation. The reincarnation cycle keeps the planet healthy, it needs souls (hence why Meteion hoarded them to "kill" planets. No souls = no new life could flourish). It was "beautiful" for 2 reasons:
1. It marks the end of one great journey and the inevitable start of a new one
Paraphrasing Hythlodaeus:
"I want to dedicate my life to helping my friends achieve their dreams. When we're all old and feel fufilled, we will leave [this world] together."
Its not that he was happily gunning towards their death or that he was fantasizing about a suicide pact, it was the idea that 3 close friends would acknowledge their journeys end together and inevitably give way to 3 new journeys.

Venat felt her journey was not over. The ancients did not force her to continue the reincarnation cycle, it was her prerogative to continue her life as she saw fit for as long as she wanted to continue. Hermes focused exclusively on death being loss. To him, death was the end of all ends. We know otherwise. The ancients know otherwise. The scions know otherwise. To quote this expansion's theme song: "Though you will weep, the winds rise again, for this journey’s end is but one step forward to tomorrow". When we part with Hyth this final time he tells us that he hopes to see us in this life or in the next. When Amon sinks into the sea we tell him we'll help him find his answers in his next life. Death is not the end. The last 2 expansions have beaten us over the head with the idea that death is not the end.


2. They could physically watch a soul join/leave the lifestream
The physical act of witnessing a soul join the lifestream is a thing that they could do. Some ancients could see souls clearer than others (Emet + Hyth), but the ability to see souls was not uncommon. Emet's short story shows that he used to enjoy watching the lights and colors flow. If every soul has its own unique color then to those that could see the lifestream it likely looked akin to a great rainbow river.

[Raven2014]

Disney managed to teach small children the circle of life so I didn't think I'd need to explain it on the forums.

lions in the lion king: Antelope eat grass, lions eat antelope, when lions die their bodies nourish grass. Their death is an important part of the circle and that circle keeps their lands healthy.

And ... what ... does this exactly have anything to do with FF14 story?

[Rokke]

And ... what ... does this exactly have anything to do with FF14 story?

You are struggling to wrap your head around how the ancients saw death and that is almost 1:1 with how the ancients saw death.

You will live. You will die. In death you will nourish the planet. You will live again. You will die again. In death you will nourish the planet. Its a circle. If we stop feeding the circle it will stop spinning and if it stops spinning the planet will wilt and die. According to the game's timeline we (the final Azem) have lived and died and lived and died and lived and died for over 12,000 years. Assuming nothing interrupts the great reincarnation cycle we will continue to feed that circle until the universe itself keels over.

[Raven2014]

You are struggling to wrap your head around how the ancients saw death and that is almost 1:1 with how the ancients saw death.

The only thing I'm struggling to wrap my head around is why you're so insistent to take the story out of its context.

Ok, put it this way: if there is a society in real life that look like the ancient, I am of the belief that they will not go toward their doom but will reach enlightenment instead - there, happy? However, I will not impose that to the story, it's called breaking the 4th wall. Once you do, then yes everything stop making sense. For example, the truth teh Ea discovered is like ... what? I mean we're hardly an enlighten species and we already know the universe gonna eventually end, the core of the planets will eventually cool and the sun will eventually run out of fuel ... and I don't see we spelling doom and gloom. You meant to tell me a specie that had transcended physical existence like the Ea decided to off themselves because of that ... common that's just ... stupid.


The ability to take thing in context is why I can enjoy the story as it is presented, instead of breaking the 4th wall and impose my own interpretation. When I see the ancient has a warped view on death and callous attitude toward death, I'm simply re-telling the view of the "in-game character" (Herme and Venat). When I say the Ancient society as it is would go down the path of ruin, that's not my belief of such a society in real life would have that fate. It is because the game has gone to great length to convey the message that it's a much proven scenario with all of those death world.

[Rokke]

The only thing I'm struggling to wrap my head around is why you're so insistent to take the story out of its context.

Ok, put it this way: if there is a society in real life that look like the ancient, I am of the belief that they will not go toward their doom but will reach enlightenment instead - there, happy? However, I will not impose that to the story, it's called breaking the 4th wall. Once you do, then yes everything stop making sense. For example, the truth teh Ea discovered is like ... what? I mean we're hardly an enlighten species and we already know the universe gonna eventually end, the core of the planets will eventually cool and the sun will eventually run out of fuel ... and I don't see we spelling doom and gloom. You meant to tell me a specie that had transcended physical existence like the Ea decided to off themselves because of that ... common that's just ... stupid.


The ability to take thing in context is why I can enjoy the story as it is presented, instead of breaking the 4th wall and impose my own interpretation. When I see the ancient has a warped view on death and callous attitude toward death, I'm simply re-telling the view of the "in-game character" (Herme and Venat). When I say the Ancient society as it is would go down the path of ruin, that's not my belief of such a society in real life would have that fate. It is because the game has gone to great length to convey the message that it's a much proven scenario with all of those death world.

Pointing out the messages the game is trying to tell you is not taking things out of context...its literally just pointing at parts of the story. You take this expansion and then look at it with what we've learned from those prior, from the bonus short stories, from their interviews and Q&As and go "A-ha! I see what they were going for!"

Out of curiosity, why do you think we are given the option to promise Hermes that we'll show him the meaning of life together? Without "breaking the 4th wall" death is the end, is it not?