So this started happening.

[ssunny2008]

Try reading, it helps understand peoples points.

"Yes TBN is a good skill, the rest of DRKs kit does not make up for it. HoC, is a good skill the rest of Gnb kit is assisting it"

Drk is worse hands down then other tanks in dungeons, its hands down worse for prog, and its hands down worse in the hands of 90% of players then just playing GNB/WAR* for DPS.

Do you have any information that disputes this?

I read and your first point was "You picked the one tank noone is comparing DRK to.", and in the next sentence you´re going to compare it meanwhile others already compared it, so what?!

And how does GNB´s kit assist HoC? It´s a solo-def with damage reduction into heal if necessary. It would probably even wasted to use any other def into it, since you might waste some of the healings potency if you don´t drop low enough. And you clearly don´t want to combine it with Aurora. On the other hand you´ve Camouflage, yes a great skill which is more effective against multitarget than singletarget.
On the other hand you´ve DRK with pure damage reduction skills and a barrier. TBN and HoC are already comparable, Dark Mind is not so good against physical trash, but it´s a 3rd hard def against any encounter with magical damage with less cd than camouflage. Aurora and Oblation will always depend. If the incoming damage is pretty high withing the 10s, Oblation will outclass Aurora. If you just eat 1-3 hits or a tankbuster, Aurora might reward you with an overall bigger heal than the damage reduction would´ve been over the time.

So far both are easy comparable and it depends more on the encounter which one is superior and which one is not. (And it´s up to the player to use it wisely.) Of course GNB is better in bigpulls, but in kind of bosses, or for the prog? I guess not since the most damage income is magical especially in savage. And with BLN you can safe yourself or someone else, which is way superior in progs than trying to heal someone dead afterwards. Such situations exists more than enough when 1-2 ppl are missing but the damage is spreaded over the last 6 players, which means dead healers.

[Bhearil]

I read and your first point was "You picked the one tank noone is comparing DRK to.", and in the next sentence you´re going to compare it meanwhile others already compared it, so what?!

And how does GNB´s kit assist HoC? It´s a solo-def with damage reduction into heal if necessary. It would probably even wasted to use any other def into it, since you might waste some of the healings potency if you don´t drop low enough. And you clearly don´t want to combine it with Aurora. On the other hand you´ve Camouflage, yes a great skill which is more effective against multitarget than singletarget.
On the other hand you´ve DRK with pure damage reduction skills and a barrier. TBN and HoC are already comparable, Dark Mind is not so good against physical trash, but it´s a 3rd hard def against any encounter with magical damage with less cd than camouflage. Aurora and Oblation will always depend. If the incoming damage is pretty high withing the 10s, Oblation will outclass Aurora. If you just eat 1-3 hits or a tankbuster, Aurora might reward you with an overall bigger heal than the damage reduction would´ve been over the time.

So far both are easy comparable and it depends more on the encounter which one is superior and which one is not. (And it´s up to the player to use it wisely.) Of course GNB is better in bigpulls, but in kind of bosses, or for the prog? I guess not since the most damage income is magical especially in savage. And with BLN you can safe yourself or someone else, which is way superior in progs than trying to heal someone dead afterwards. Such situations exists more than enough when 1-2 ppl are missing but the damage is spreaded over the last 6 players, which means dead healers.

Just saying the Heart of Corundum heal WILL trigger no matter what once it ends, it simply triggers earlier as soon as you dip below 50%

Heart of Corundum gives 30% damage reduction of the first 4 seconds to drop later to 15% but only with that is already comparable to TBN(just a bit worse if we compare only that), add a 900 potency heal after 20 seconds OR as soon as you drop below 50% and TBN looks like a sad joke in comparison.

Yeah Heart of Corundum can sometimes overheal yes but following that reasoning you can also fail to pop TBN and waste 3k mp which is far worse than simply wasting part of a short cd skill. Thats why TBN is the least used short cd skill of all tanks due to the cost slapped on it. you can use the others to just mitigate fluff damage if you want, but cant do with TBN unless you are 100% sure the shield is gonna pop each time you use it or you get penalized for using the skill

Oblation is basically a bandaid to compensate DRK lacking one defensive whenever they dont get hit by magic atacks and no, tankbusters are not always magical even if most raid wide aoes usually are magic damage

[ssunny2008]

Just saying the Heart of Corundum heal WILL trigger no matter what once it ends, it simply triggers earlier as soon as you dip below 50%

I know how it works, doesn´t change my statement. Any other def, heal, etc can fck up the second instance of the skill.

Heart of Corundum gives 30% damage reduction of the first 4 seconds to drop later to 15% but only with that is already comparable to TBN(just a bit worse if we compare only that), add a 900 potency heal after 20 seconds OR as soon as you drop below 50% and TBN looks like a sad joke in comparison.

Yeah Heart of Corundum can sometimes overheal yes but following that reasoning you can also fail to pop TBN and waste 3k mp which is far worse than simply wasting part of a short cd skill. Thats why TBN is the least used short cd skill of all tanks due to the cost slapped on it. you can use the others to just mitigate fluff damage if you want, but cant do with TBN unless you are 100% sure the shield is gonna pop each time you use it or you get penalized for using the skill

Oblation is basically a bandaid to compensate DRK lacking one defensive whenever they dont get hit by magic atacks and no, tankbusters are not always magical even if most raid wide aoes usually are magic damage

I´ve already posted the checked numbers of someone else. TBN is a bit weaker, but sits on a lower cooldown and can be used way more often. That´s some form of balancing. Seriously if we´re talking about the effectiveness, you don´t want to use the others to mitigate fluff damage. Therefor you´ve stuff like Aurora, Oblation... Ofc TBN is able to go into nowhere with a bad use too. You gonna lose damage, but since DRK is top damage tank, you´ve a buffer to compensate it.
And calling Oblation a bandaid is the same like calling Aurora or other skills a bandaid. They´re not super strong, not super low, the use and effectiveness based on the circumstances. It´s nothing special, but not a bad addition also especially since you´re ablt to use it on a teammember. As i´ve said, the real killers are the damage income, not the 30s time for heal afterwards.

Yes, not every TB is magical too, but there are some and overall 80-90% of the whole raids is magical damage.

And again, DRK and GNB might work a bit different, but they´re comparable in its kit and half of their kit has an even way of use (Roleskills, 123, Group-mitigation, invul). So far i would call both balanced out to each other. Who makes more use out of its kit is based on the content and the player behind it.

[Bhearil]

I know how it works, doesn´t change my statement. Any other def, heal, etc can fck up the second instance of the skill.



I´ve already posted the checked numbers of someone else. BLN is a bit weaker, but sits on a lower cooldown and can be used way more often. That´s some form of balancing. Seriously if we´re talking about the effectiveness, you don´t want to use the others to mitigate fluff damage. Therefor you´ve stuff like Aurora, Oblation... Ofc BLN is able to go into nowhere with a bad use too. You gonna lose damage, but since DRK is top damage tank, you´ve a buffer to compensate it.
And calling Oblation a bandaid is the same like calling Aurora or other skills a bandaid. They´re not super strong, not super low, the use and effectiveness based on the circumstances. It´s nothing special, but not a bad addition also especially since you´re ablt to use it on a teammember. As i´ve said, the real killers are the damage income, not the 30s time for heal afterwards.

Yes, not every TB is magical too, but there are some and overall 80-90% of the whole raids is magical damage.

And again, DRK and GNB might work a bit different, but they´re comparable in its kit and half of their kit has an even way of use (Roleskills, 123, Group-mitigation, invul). So far i would call both balanced out to each other. Who makes more use out of its kit is based on the content and the player behind it.

TBN lower cooldown is actually a trap because you rarely will be able to use each 15 seconds unless you are talking about mass pulling on dungeons where it will last 2-3 seconds at most and is over unlike their equivalents that last their full duration no matter what . Bosses auto atacks once geared are usually unable to break TBN by themselves, unless they add something else before TBN ends. You can see that on endgame TBN uses are low in comparison to the other tanks equivalents despite having lower cd

Oblation is better than nothing, thats the best you can say about it considering that things that Shield Samba exist affecting everyone in the group with a comparable cd (90 seconds cd 15 seconds duration vs 10 seconds duration 60 cd and shielding full team> shielding 2 persons) avoiding the clunkyness of having to target someone. If its really needed to save someone you use TBN not Oblation because the mitigation is so low that is only useful to reduce fluff damage (Samba is good in those cases because it reduces damage to everyone not a single/two person), unless you consider for example Monk a defense god for having 20% damage reduction per stack with Riddle of Earth. I can count with my hands the times a mere 10% mitigation saved someone, those are more for easing the healer's job unless you stack several cds at once to try to save someone with vul stacks for example.

When a tank defense cd can be compared to DPS defensive cds you know that skill is really weak for a tank

I think you are mistaking raid wide aoes that are indeed the norm being magical with the tankbusters that they become far more varied being equally split on being physical and magical to avoid the HW Alexander mess where everything was magical and hugely benefitted DRK in PLD detriment.

[ssunny2008]

TBN lower cooldown is actually a trap because you rarely will be able to use each 15 seconds unless you are talking about mass pulling on dungeons where it will last 2-3 seconds at most and is over unlike their equivalents that last their full duration no matter what . Bosses auto atacks once geared are usually unable to break TBN by themselves, unless they add something else before TBN ends. You can see that on endgame TBN uses are low in comparison to the other tanks equivalents despite having lower cd

If you use TBN at the right moments, a bunch of bosses trigger it with autoattacks. And you can still make use of it inbetween on any random partymember or on the MT if you´re OT. And well, the most cry is about big pulls and to have something with a low cd seems legit to me.

Oblation is better than nothing, thats the best you can say about it considering that things that Shield Samba exist affecting everyone in the group with a comparable cd (90 seconds cd 15 seconds duration vs 10 seconds duration 60 cd and shielding full team> shielding 2 persons) avoiding the clunkyness of having to target someone. If its really needed to save someone you use TBN not Oblation because the mitigation is so low that is only useful to reduce fluff damage (Samba is good in those cases because it reduces damage to everyone not a single/two person), unless you consider for example Monk a defense god for having 20% damage reduction per stack with Riddle of Earth. I can count with my hands the times a mere 10% mitigation saved someone, those are more for easing the healer's job unless you stack several cds at once to try to save someone with vul stacks for example.

I didn´t say "it´s better than nothing." I said it´s not superior, but it isn´t bad either. And we´re talking about what tanks have, not which group mitigation exists. Both have different uses, while one is good for aoe ofc, the other can always be used as MT or to protect the current MT... maybe even that DPS / healer who ate a ground-effect right before the raid-wide. I´ve safed more than enough ppl by using TBN or similar tools on other tanks before.
Overall your comparison lacks aswell. Oblation has 2 charges and stuff like Shield Samba might only take 1 hit for the whole group, unless it´s one of the "new" overused multistacks. Going so far a bunch of things are just "bandaids" or be there to be there...

When a tank defense cd can be compared to DPS defensive cds you know that skill is really weak for a tank

Imo it just looks like your try to find arguments to assist your claim. How about MNK´s RoE? 20% damage reduction for 10s or 3 skills with 3 charges and 30s reload. Looks like it shits on any tankdef out there but the uniques one. Or how about Reapers grouphealing making healers somehow obsolete?

Just because some DPS have broken tools to assist the group or to keep themselves alive, doesn´t mean that other stuff is crap. Going so far a bunch of things are just "bandaids" or be there to be there... You might don´t like it, but Oblation is fine and has its possibilities. Not everything needs to be overtuned.

I think you are mistaking raid wide aoes that are indeed the norm being magical with the tankbusters that they become far more varied being equally split on being physical and magical to avoid the HW Alexander mess where everything was magical and hugely benefitted DRK in PLD detriment.

I´m not mistaking raid-wide aoes. E11 and even E9 TB´s for example have been magical if i remember correctly. Don´t know about the others, some even share stuff. Would need to check it. The most stuff in raids is magical and again, barriers and dmg-red are superior in prog, while hots and flat damage are in farm. You´ve normally enough time to heal between any encounters.

EDIT: Given to ff.logs, the new tier seems to have 3x magical and 1x physical tb. The 3rd boss seem to attack the OT with magical damage, while the MT gets physical autohits. But i´m not sure if i interpreted it correctly. Looks like DRK suits in his OT role now.

[Larirawiel]

As a main healer i must also admit that the DRK is the most heal intensive tank atm. In expert dungeons when the DRK tank pulls two groups i must pump healing like crazy and hope that most enemies die before i run out of cooldowns.

The DRK is really broken atm and way weaker than the other tanks.

Cheers

[Valknut]

You aren't adding anything to the discussion Sunny. Tanks don't die to freaking tank busters FFS.

[ssunny2008]

You aren't adding anything to the discussion Sunny. Tanks don't die to freaking tank busters FFS.

Why does tanks need even defs then? For big pulls only? Maybe just pull less? The most tanks i know need to jump from the platform, because the whole raid is dead. So yeah, get ride of them all!
But : "Oh no, someone don´t wants everything to be broken, please go away! We need this game being braindead mode!"


I argue about big pulls and you guys are like "it´s about everything". So i argue about everything and you guys are like "we dont compare it to GNB, we don´t count tankbusters, content doesn´t matter here, etc...". Just LOL.

EDIT: Btw your claim shows that you´ve actually no clue and probably don´t even touch savage. (if even EX?)

[Kalaam]

Go on, keep gatekeeping.

[Undeadfire]

The 3rd boss seem to attack the OT with magical damage, while the MT gets physical autohits.

That's what I first thought, but it's actually still blunt the Sunbirds auto attacks fused with Phoinix.

Unless this can be corrected.