Endwalker was a great mess(SPOILERS)

[Powercow]

Again i don’t get this thing about they weren’t super interested, when Emet himself says he puts the safety of the star over anything else even if he doesn’t believe someone’s story.

Diplomatic Ancient One: Thank you all for joining us at Anyder in these most perilous of times.
Diplomatic Ancient One: By the summoning of Zodiark have we been granted a reprieve. Yet immutable as the laws He has woven may seem, they will not serve to forestall our doom.
Distressed Ancient One: Nay. Should we continue down this path, our fate will be the same.
Distressed Ancient One: I said as much to the Convocation, of course, but the stubborn fools turned a deaf ear to my warnings.
Distressed Ancient One: I had hoped that the defector, at least, would side with us, but I regret to report our overtures have gone unanswered.
Distressed Ancient One: Whither tend your thoughts, Venat? Where you lead, we will follow.
Venat: I shall not speak ill of the Convocation─they too seek only to secure the future of our star.
Venat: Yet it is plain they will not countenance a permanent solution. That being the case, we must ask ourselves a simple question: are we prepared to pursue our chosen course, even should it mean suffering the eternal condemnation of our brethren?
Venat: If so, I see no further reason to demur.
Venat: Let us bring forth the Light that shall ever after keep the Darkness in check.

I also think literally sacrificing everyone else, people that Venat and Azem had met and befriended, whole societies... just to forestall their own problems another day? Seems rather... evil, I suppose. Especially given that this problem was of their own making. Hermes started it, and despite the warnings they apparently just kept with it. After all, why should THEY change when they're perfect? Just kill up everyone else, let Zodiark sort it out and pretend the elephant in the room doesn't exist.

[PaulH]

The 'narrative' can say what it likes, though the writers themselves are on record as stating that there's rarely a defined 'good' or 'evil' within the setting and merely matters of perspective.

Venat isn't some brave hero who saw what others did not. She's an individual who denied her people the opportunity to properly prepare themselves against the threat of the Final Days. The Plenty is a separate world to that of the Ancients and there's no established guarantee that the Ancients would have gone in the exact same direction. The Dragons, too, had a paradise but lost it to war through no fault of their own. Nor does it really align with what the Sundered are doing, given that the trend so far has been for the Scions to move from region to region and establish their own version of 'paradise' upon everybody else with the majority of grit within each nation eroded away or removed entirely in the search for a 'better tomorrow'.

The writing isn't particularly deep or consistent, either. If it's 'bad' for the Ancients to bring back their loved ones, then why is acceptable for the Scions to do the same? Using the power of the same entity who prevented the Ancients from doing it, mind you. If anything, that can be taken as Venat admitting that her methods were incorrect after all and that doing everything possible to preserve one's loved ones is the correct route to take.

Which it is - because there's no reason for anyone to just roll over and die and accept that their friends, family and neighbours 'need' to be wiped out to make way for someone else.

I don't think the story knew what it was doing in the finale and it certainly didn't commit to the 'themes' that it put front and centre. Having done many of the side quests, I noticed that many were about accepting death and moving on - which is all the stranger when that, conveniently, never applies to the Scions or City State leaders.

Each to their own, though, I suppose. Nobody is even obligated to agree with the 'themes' pushed by a story, at any rate. Different characters and factions resonate differently, after all.

@Theodric i really like your take on things and therefore always giving my thought provoking alternate insights and other angles to consider when reflecting on this. You contributions to this and the lore forum is always great. Thanks.

[Palladiamors]

Diplomatic Ancient One: Thank you all for joining us at Anyder in these most perilous of times.
Diplomatic Ancient One: By the summoning of Zodiark have we been granted a reprieve. Yet immutable as the laws He has woven may seem, they will not serve to forestall our doom.
Distressed Ancient One: Nay. Should we continue down this path, our fate will be the same.
Distressed Ancient One: I said as much to the Convocation, of course, but the stubborn fools turned a deaf ear to my warnings.
Distressed Ancient One: I had hoped that the defector, at least, would side with us, but I regret to report our overtures have gone unanswered.
Distressed Ancient One: Whither tend your thoughts, Venat? Where you lead, we will follow.
Venat: I shall not speak ill of the Convocation─they too seek only to secure the future of our star.
Venat: Yet it is plain they will not countenance a permanent solution. That being the case, we must ask ourselves a simple question: are we prepared to pursue our chosen course, even should it mean suffering the eternal condemnation of our brethren?
Venat: If so, I see no further reason to demur.
Venat: Let us bring forth the Light that shall ever after keep the Darkness in check.

I also think literally sacrificing everyone else, people that Venat and Azem had met and befriended, whole societies... just to forestall their own problems another day? Seems rather... evil, I suppose. Especially given that this problem was of their own making. Hermes started it, and despite the warnings they apparently just kept with it. After all, why should THEY change when they're perfect? Just kill up everyone else, let Zodiark sort it out and pretend the elephant in the room doesn't exist.

Their solution was to sacrifice half of their remaining number to try to reclaim what they had lost, create a bunch of new people and races and what have you and then sacrifice ALL of them to bring back the people they'd originally sacrificed, all without actually fixing the problem. To make it even worse people sacrificed to Zodiark didn't even get to return to the Aetherial Sea, they had to remain trapped in Zodiark. As a society the Ascians might have meant well but man when the crud hit the fan they went downhill quick. The Ascians after the Final Days were villains, plain and simple.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Diplomatic Ancient One: Thank you all for joining us at Anyder in these most perilous of times.
Diplomatic Ancient One: By the summoning of Zodiark have we been granted a reprieve. Yet immutable as the laws He has woven may seem, they will not serve to forestall our doom.
Distressed Ancient One: Nay. Should we continue down this path, our fate will be the same.
Distressed Ancient One: I said as much to the Convocation, of course, but the stubborn fools turned a deaf ear to my warnings.
Distressed Ancient One: I had hoped that the defector, at least, would side with us, but I regret to report our overtures have gone unanswered.
Distressed Ancient One: Whither tend your thoughts, Venat? Where you lead, we will follow.
Venat: I shall not speak ill of the Convocation─they too seek only to secure the future of our star.
Venat: Yet it is plain they will not countenance a permanent solution. That being the case, we must ask ourselves a simple question: are we prepared to pursue our chosen course, even should it mean suffering the eternal condemnation of our brethren?
Venat: If so, I see no further reason to demur.
Venat: Let us bring forth the Light that shall ever after keep the Darkness in check.

I also think literally sacrificing everyone else, people that Venat and Azem had met and befriended, whole societies... just to forestall their own problems another day? Seems rather... evil, I suppose. Especially given that this problem was of their own making. Hermes started it, and despite the warnings they apparently just kept with it. After all, why should THEY change when they're perfect? Just kill up everyone else, let Zodiark sort it out and pretend the elephant in the room doesn't exist.

We’re never shown that conversation between that random ancient person and the convocation but irregardless Venat has more leeway, especially considering the Elpis situation is before Zodiark even exists. The problem wasn’t of their own making really either. I don’t think they really had a stance on perfection either as we see with Pandaemonium, problems still arose, again they were just better than most societies.They didn’t know they were only stalling by the way you seem to be cherry picking things. The ancients willingly sacrificed themselves to protect the star and its people, for both sacrifices. They didn’t know what had happened at the time you’re acting like they knew the entire time. If you want to talk about evil, look at Venat who could’ve given her people a fighting chance and instead lies and kept things from them and then decided to literally rip her people apart. Not only that but then later was fine with the people she created being killed and only the people on the source surviving. Just because Hermes started things btw doesn’t mean the entire society is to blame. That’s one person.

[Theodric]

@Theodric i really like your take on things and therefore always giving my thought provoking alternate insights and other angles to consider when reflecting on this. You contributions to this and the lore forum is always great. Thanks.

Hah, I appreciate that! It's good to know I'm not rambling into the void.

I always strive to figure out the 'how' and 'why' behind pretty much every situation. I hold fast to the idea that concepts such as morality are exceedingly complex and that they're going to resonate differently based on any given individual's personal experiences, their background, personal beliefs and all manner of different factors.

...and that's before applying the same lens to the characters/factions in question.

[Lauront]

Diplomatic Ancient One: Thank you all for joining us at Anyder in these most perilous of times.
Diplomatic Ancient One: By the summoning of Zodiark have we been granted a reprieve. Yet immutable as the laws He has woven may seem, they will not serve to forestall our doom.
Distressed Ancient One: Nay. Should we continue down this path, our fate will be the same.
Distressed Ancient One: I said as much to the Convocation, of course, but the stubborn fools turned a deaf ear to my warnings.
Distressed Ancient One: I had hoped that the defector, at least, would side with us, but I regret to report our overtures have gone unanswered.
Distressed Ancient One: Whither tend your thoughts, Venat? Where you lead, we will follow.
Venat: I shall not speak ill of the Convocation─they too seek only to secure the future of our star.
Venat: Yet it is plain they will not countenance a permanent solution. That being the case, we must ask ourselves a simple question: are we prepared to pursue our chosen course, even should it mean suffering the eternal condemnation of our brethren?
Venat: If so, I see no further reason to demur.
Venat: Let us bring forth the Light that shall ever after keep the Darkness in check.

I also think literally sacrificing everyone else, people that Venat and Azem had met and befriended, whole societies... just to forestall their own problems another day? Seems rather... evil, I suppose. Especially given that this problem was of their own making. Hermes started it, and despite the warnings they apparently just kept with it. After all, why should THEY change when they're perfect? Just kill up everyone else, let Zodiark sort it out and pretend the elephant in the room doesn't exist.

That source simply states the Convocation rejected their "solution"; if said "solution" was to sunder their people because they had a preference for the newborn life (again: unspecified what this was but very possible it was creations like those in Elpis which had gained souls, thus not much different to animals or monsters for the most part) and could not get the majority of their people on-side, it is not surprising that the Convocation would reject their suggestion. I posted this a while for a clearer understanding of the events in SHB, because people seem prone to making up headcanon and then substituting it for what happened.

The last line, I can make little sense of; the Final Days had already decimated the world by that point, to the point of nearly killing the star.

[Rokke]

Diplomatic Ancient One: By the summoning of Zodiark have we been granted a reprieve. Yet immutable as the laws He has woven may seem, they will not serve to forestall our doom.
Distressed Ancient One: Nay. Should we continue down this path, our fate will be the same.
Distressed Ancient One: I said as much to the Convocation, of course, but the stubborn fools turned a deaf ear to my warnings.

They tried talking to the convocation after Zodiark had been summoned. They had already been tempered.

[Rulakir]

I think they ended up retconning some of the Anyder stuff. The scene just after that one of them asks why Venat has to be the heart, that they need her as their leader and they'll miss her. This makes no sense given the context of the sundering unless we assume that the people aiding Venat were not aware that was her intention, which makes her character even worse. Plus, the Hydaelyn primal is more akin to Ysayle as Shiva than Elidibus as Zodiark, so even the heart comment seems odd knowing what we know now.

Anyway, as for the "perfect" worlds, I know it's asking a lot for realism in a fantasy setting video game, but the will to live is the strongest instinct we know of in living creatures. The idea that one planet would collectively decide to die beggared belief let alone this being any sort of common occurrence throughout the universe. Plus, "perfection" as studied in other creatures, like rats, doesn't result in that. Typically what happens is after you've removed the need to worry about food, shelter, and predators, the animals become bored. Lacking purpose, they start turning on each other and in some cases drive themselves to extinction. I don't recall a world like that. The closest would've been the one that engaged in a civil war, but "perfection" would have led to a more chaotic situation. The Ra-la planet was also fine before Metetion arrived, it's stated in the notes in the Dead Ends that her arrival and incessant questioning spurred their existential crisis.

None of this even matters though, since there was no stopping the Final Days it would've served to shake up whatever "perfect" (subjective!) world the Ancients had and forced them to collectively face a common threat, which likely would've made them stronger individually and as a whole. The Ancients loved their star and they were intelligent beings, they would've come together and done whatever it took to save it (and did with Zodiark), so to say that they were incapable of handling a crisis or deal with suffering is simply false. Ultimately, they weren't given a chance to prove themselves. It's another reason I hate that post-Elpis montage, it came across as incredibly judgmental and tone deaf.

[Adamantini]

I don't believe it was a great mess, there was some great points in this expansion. But yes, I agree with you. Especially for this point:

- odd pacing, we are playing dressup with bunnies while the world is ending at radz at han.

They added so much irrelevant points, because of fan service or because they feared the history became so much dark. And this turned all the "final days" thing a joke. I only felt urgency in stop the final days 1 time, and after that, I was searching for Hermes for 300 times in Elpis, or trying to make a bird happy, while the NPCs are in a supost more interesting conversation without me (more interesting than make a bird happy).
I only had 1 expectation about the history, a answer about how Hydaelin broke Zoldiark, because I interpreted him more powerful than her. But nothing. I don't know if I lost something, but I felt they don't give us details about anything at all.

I loved the idea to take a walk with NPCs, but this method needs more "polishing". Let me make more clear: a half of conversations while you walk with the NPCs are "hey, we need to turn left!" "hey, we need to go up the stairs", and a big part of the rest are irrelevant quotes, like the world is ending in Radz, and Graha stopped you to say about tapestry.

I know my opinion is unpopular, but I think they had a great opportunity here, but they missed because of fear to turn things darkest (?)

[KizuyaKatogami]

Their solution was to sacrifice half of their remaining number to try to reclaim what they had lost, create a bunch of new people and races and what have you and then sacrifice ALL of them to bring back the people they'd originally sacrificed, all without actually fixing the problem. To make it even worse people sacrificed to Zodiark didn't even get to return to the Aetherial Sea, they had to remain trapped in Zodiark. As a society the Ascians might have meant well but man when the crud hit the fan they went downhill quick. The Ascians after the Final Days were villains, plain and simple.

Once again i dont know where people are getting this idea they created a bunch of new people and races just to sacrifice all of them. From what Hythlodaeus tells us, they were going to use a PORTION of the new life to bring back their loved ones, not all of it. Also should be an important distinction between Ancients and Ascians as they are technically two different things. Pesronally though i dont regard the ascians as just being clear cut villains. They were doing what they could to bring back the star to the way it once was, to a stable world. The devs had elaborated awhile back that the sundering had actually made the world unstable and it was a very bad and dangerous thing but this was never elaborated on sadly.