Summoner doesn't feel like it Summons.

[MagiusNecros]

Summoner community in a nutshell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdPGWEFa6UM

[Tulzscha]

Summoner community in a nutshell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdPGWEFa6UM

It's almost like different people have different opinions.

Crazy I know.

[Cheshire_Katzen]

Okay that made me laugh a good hearty laugh. Thank you.

[Manamaru]

For how long the hope to include ramuh, leviathan, and shiva; if it doesn’t happen in 10.0 after this rework, I think it’s safe to say it isn’t happening.

As for what feels or what doesn’t feel like a “proper final fantasy summoner”, then I ask everyone; what makes a “proper final summoner” to you?

[Tulzscha]

As for what feels or what doesn’t feel like a “proper final fantasy summoner”, then I ask everyone; what makes a “proper final summoner” to you?

Imo it just has to be focused around big summons doing big attacks fairly often. That alone doesn't make for an interesting mmo job though so there's plenty of space to get creative. Making summons permanent pets reduces their impact and SMN is all about big impact so I'm not a fan of that, temporary pets are fine.

[LitheSuxman]

The rework is designed around minimizing AI involvement I feel like, which I understand is way harder to improve, so getting around it maybe the best option for both SE and players... at least for this generation of computer.

[Risvertasashi]

The rework is designed around minimizing AI involvement I feel like, which I understand is way harder to improve, so getting around it maybe the best option for both SE and players... at least for this generation of computer.

Interestingly enough, older games (including the older FF MMO!) have greater AI involvement. Summoner among them, though when I took a brief dive into that game, I was very surprised and impressed by all the nuances that puppetmaster's AI had.

I think it's not a matter of what the computer is capable of, but how game design trends and MOs have changed. Older MMOs, MUDs, and so on were more like sandboxes. FF14 and similar are highly, highly streamlined and all about very carefully choreographed encounters. FF14 requires you to step here, then there, and lastly over there in very precisely timed sequences - a dance. AI's not so great for that - either you preprogram all the moves (trusts), expect the player to manage all the positioning even though it's not responsive (Old FF14), or just make the pets immune to everything or even just dress up abilities as a pet thing when really it's the player (current FF14).

And then - aside from the ability to solve and follow mechanics - FF14 has chosen rotations to be the metric by which players distinguish skill. How well you can sequence your abilities, time and prioritize them, and so on. Giving AI too much influence over this upsets that balance.

And then other games in genres far and wide like to minimize AI involvement because, well, they want the player's skill to shine and be more defining - ie, modern shooters mostly make turrets very weak if they have them at all, compared to older games, because they want one's success to be dependent on reflexes and fine motor skill. For FF14, that's doing a job's rotation.

So, you can see how there's not too much room for traditional pet job design in the modern game. It might be different if FF were more strategy or tactical focused, but as essentially an action game, AI has to be severely handicapped or it'd just be the better option. We might not have pet jobs at all, if YoshiP hadn't run a series of polls in 1.0 where such ended up being a very popular option.

[AceofRains]

Yuna also had permanent summons, and FFXII and XIII featured summons as temporary allies.
Let's not act as if permanent summons would be breaking any rules, the Franchise has been moving towards more permanent and interactive concepts of summoning for 20 years now; it's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

It was already said but it’s worth repeating. Let’s not pretend that we didn’t already have permanent summons that had way too many problems. Also if you really want to compare to X, XII, and XII… in 10, in some fights it was more optimal just to Grand Summon and Dismiss than to keep fighting with the Summon. In 12 and 13 your summons were on a limited time, with 12 having that ideal walk around with your pet that you seem to want, while in 13 if you Summoned you were probably in a story situation or were about to make a finishing gambit on the boss.

[Palladiamors]

They removed the only thing resembling a pet job from the game. It was a crappy decision and we got a crappy replacement. But the minority of vocal people screaming "SUMMONS GO BOOM!' got what they wanted so whatever.

[Jirah]

They removed the only thing resembling a pet job from the game. It was a crappy decision and we got a crappy replacement. But the minority of vocal people screaming "SUMMONS GO BOOM!' got what they wanted so whatever.

Basically this, the community is very easily enthralled by visuals and can regulate all jobs to 1 button if it meant it looked pretty and they would still defend it. We’ve seen this happen a few times already but SMN defenses by (mostly) people who never played it , is some of the dumbest arguments I’ve ever heard of