Low developer effort rework for the DRK Job

[C0ATL]

You make some excellent points. I had not thought the duration through from a latency POV so 4 seconds is better. The % damage reduction being op on tanks due to their HP was something I considered. However, if Oblation gets turned into another shield, it would be like having 3 TBNs. That is the only reason why I left it in my suggestion as a % reduction. A more extreme rework for the ability which could solve this dilemma would be if Oblation can only be cast on a target and never on yourself. I still think the low duration compensates for the flaw of it being % dmg reduction instead of a shield. Tanks by themselves dont really need more mitigation overall and boss mechanics for tanks are calculated for their skill cooldowns, so a DRK would be more inclined to use Oblation for saving others.

I really don't want to see the job dumbed down and homogenized even further.

I dont agree that a change which makes an ability less frustrating to use, but equally complex in its mechanics means dumbing it down. It will be more forgiving for new players on the job, but good players will still want to use it to its max potential - only when it can pop for the free Dark Arts proc. Its mechanics stay the same and the lack of mana cost is balanced by the increased cd.

Such means we can't use Salted nearer to its cooldown if adds are to spawn within its duration. Given that adds often won't last the full duration of Salted Earth, being able to put it down nearer the CD and then blast later has felt to me like an option worthy of its oGCD taken.

Another point that I had not considered. Thinking about it now, though, how often does the situation you describe happen? In my personal experience and from watching other DRK gameplay, I notice that SE is used when the trash/adds are already gathered. Keeping in mind that SE is no longer a ranged ability, but casts at your feet, we cant really use it as a ranged aggro tool upon add spawn. The case you described does exist, no doubt about it, but I think its less common than the alternative.

This just feels like needless alignment hell for a really wonky increase to potency-per-minute and seems no less like bloat than did Enhanced Unmend.

DRK only has the one combo and it occupies a lot of our regular GCD, especially during single target. Soulstealer is used a lot more during a fight than Unmend.
My suggested trait triggers of a commonly used ability and reduces cd for one of our best skills. Unmend has a realistic chance to be used 1-2% of the total fight time (?) and reduces cooldown for an ability already having 2 charges and useless the other 98% of the fight(due to you being next to the target). To put them in the same category of bloat seems unfair.

Thank you again for the constructive reply. Unfortunately, you were the only one who stayed on topic.

Let's keep the discussion going.

[Shurrikhan]

DRK only has the one combo and it occupies a lot of our regular GCD, especially during single target. Soulstealer is used a lot more during a fight than Unmend.

That's irrelevant to what I'm saying, though. Because you have only one combo, any effect that is generated from it that does not reward precise timing will have little (i.e., use Bloodspiller early as not to excessively accelerate AD/C&S CDR) to no real (gameplay) interaction. All an Abyssal-Drain CD reduction attached to Soul Eater would do is cause you to feel further penalized for having any downtime (since your portion of uptime-dependent ppm increases), but in a way more annoying to calculate, while --far worse-- causing you to feel penalized for having acquired the Blood gauge, since that means fewer Souleater per minute.

If it has no actual effect on gameplay save to worsen your relative potency regenerated between fights/during downtime, make it more difficult to plan CDs, and to later penalize you for gaining new skills... that's bloat at best.

CDR should only be used when (1) the job needs a lower portion of downtime generation (i.e., because the job already has too much potency owed to purely normal-time-based CDs) and --more importantly-- (2) it is manageable, and (3) its effects are satisfying. (WAR at least has the latter two, for instance, attached to Enhanced Infuriate, though the gameplay effects were more noticeable when Infuriate only had a single charge.)

Another point that I had not considered. Thinking about it now, though, how often does the situation you describe happen? In my personal experience and from watching other DRK gameplay, I notice that SE is used when the trash/adds are already gathered. Keeping in mind that SE is no longer a ranged ability, but casts at your feet, we cant really use it as a ranged aggro tool upon add spawn. The case you described does exist, no doubt about it, but I think its less common than the alternative.

Not often, but if we remove even the least expensive (here, only an additional .67 apm required, not even an extra button) nuances, we've only ourselves to blame when content is designed increasing towards those less nuance-capable kits.

I'd argue also, though, that Salted Earth should be allowed to cast anywhere (within 25 yalms), as before. Mods have already found ways to allow for perfectly smooth, perfectly responsive (and queueable) ground-targeting for M&KB and nearly the same (through target-snapping before placement) for controller -- much the same as has been requested for the default game since ARR (see early comments on Shadowflare, Fiery Arrow, Sacred Soil, etc.). It's absurd to remove a noticeable degree of control just because they can't be bothered to fix targeting systems that deserve fixes for more than just the one ability.

[C0ATL]

All an Abyssal-Drain CD reduction attached to Soul Eater would do is cause you to feel further penalized for having any downtime (since your portion of uptime-dependent ppm increases), but in a way more annoying to calculate, while --far worse-- causing you to feel penalized for having acquired the Blood gauge, since that means fewer Souleater per minute. If it has no actual effect on gameplay save to worsen your relative potency regenerated between fights/during downtime, make it more difficult to plan CDs, and to later penalize you for gaining new skills... that's bloat at best.

Carve and Spit and Abyssal Drain share a cooldown in EW. You'll never use Abyssal Drain in a boss fight anymore. They are also both OGCDs, so your point of the rotation being harmed falls flat. The same goes for the part where it worsens your relative potency, since CaS is quite a powerful attack that also returns mana. (more edge of shadow in the long run). If your argument for why its not a good trait is that people will feel bad for not using Soulstealer as much as possible to get those ppms because Bloodspiller will take up some GCDs, then its a bad argument. By that logic, my SMN Ruin should never get any traits that upgrade its damage because I dont cast it on every available GCD. Nor should any trait that upgrade other jobs' similar abilities.

CDR should only be used when (1) the job needs a lower portion of downtime generation (i.e., because the job already has too much potency owed to purely normal-time-based CDs) and --more importantly-- (2) it is manageable, and (3) its effects are satisfying.

(1) Keep in mind that when I proposed the trait, it was with all the other chances taking place, meaning less button bloat over the current version. An extra CaS every now and again can easily fit in that scenario.
(2) I say again, it is an OGCD.
(3) 510 potency attack + MP gain feels pretty satisfying to me

I understand where you are coming from...basically wanting for that perfect ability/trait which fits in the rotation seamlessly with no 'feelsbad' like your Bloodspiller example. I dont have that for you - certainly not in a low effort rework proposal. Until that trait comes, I'd still take what I suggested over something utterly useless like Enhanced Unmend any day.

With the last part of your reply, I agree. I've always been an advocate for more options and flexibility in spells - SE being ranged is no exception (especially given the improvements they made to the ground targeting system in EW)

[Shurrikhan]

Carve and Spit and Abyssal Drain share a cooldown in EW.

I said "Abyssal" only as shorthand for "the cooldown shared by Abyssal Drain and Carve and Split." Note that I included both earlier.

(1) Keep in mind that when I proposed the trait, it was with all the other chances taking place, meaning less button bloat over the current version. An extra CaS every now and again can easily fit in that scenario.

The extra C&S per minute makes the job need its downtime generation curtailed?

(2) I say again, it is an OGCD.

That has no impact on managing the cooldown reduction per action. Management refers to having something to do in order to optimize the cooldown reduction afforded. Here, the most management to be done would be to save a Blood spender that'd need to be spent anyways before the Trick Attack window for if/when you have fewer seconds left on AD/C&S's recast time than the amount of seconds by which Souleater trim's their cooldown.

(3) 510 potency attack + MP gain feels pretty satisfying to me

You're describing C&S, but what you've suggested isn't a cooldown reduction to C&S so much as simply a Souleater buff. If you just want more C&S, and do not want necessarily to make DRK more uptime-dependent (i.e., to reduce its downtime generation) then, again, just reduce the cooldown on C&S instead of buffing Souleater to make DRK more uptime-dependent.

By all means, give us a greater frequency with our oGCD attacks that aren't simply Edge/Flood, but how you do so --while subtler-- has an effect, too.

[C0ATL]

You're describing C&S, but what you've suggested isn't a cooldown reduction to C&S so much as simply a Souleater buff. If you just want more C&S, and do not want necessarily to make DRK more uptime-dependent (i.e., to reduce its downtime generation) then, again, just reduce the cooldown on C&S instead of buffing Souleater to make DRK more uptime-dependent.

By all means, give us a greater frequency with our oGCD attacks that aren't simply Edge/Flood, but how you do so --while subtler-- has an effect, too.

Damn... In the pursuit of thinking up a trait that sounded cool, I ignored the fact that often the more simple solution is the best. A trait that gives pure CDR to C&S does get the same result, and would eliminate all the downsides that you mentioned about it being attached to Soulstealer. Furthermore, it would also help Abyssal, since Abyssal Drain is only seen in AOE situations, where Soulstealer isn't really used, except when you get down to the last 2 adds. I'll update the initial post, as I did with the 4 seconds modifications based on your latency issue comment.

[Shurrikhan]

Damn... In the pursuit of thinking up a trait that sounded cool, I ignored the fact that often the more simple solution is the best. A trait that gives pure CDR to C&S does get the same result, and would eliminate all the downsides that you mentioned about it being attached to Soulstealer. Furthermore, it would also help Abyssal, since Abyssal Drain is only seen in AOE situations, where Soulstealer isn't really used, except when you get down to the last 2 adds. I'll update the initial post, as I did with the 4 seconds modifications based on your latency issue comment.

Glad to be of help. And to be fair, I've only come to be sharply aware of these things from falling into the same trap myself in previous suggestions for jobs/classes/specs across the MMOs I've played.

I'll throw up my own spitball list at some point. Feel free to likewise tear my suggestions apart / offer constructive criticism if you happen upon them.



Minimalist Fix (Not particularly satisfying, but far more workable, with the fewest steps and least bloat):

• Blood Weapon removed; it's just a (finnicky) free Edge/Flood per minute, basically bloat.
• Darkside removed; potencies increased to compensate. It was a waste of gauge anyways.
• Dark Arts is now just a proc that appears on your status bar, rather than requiring its own UI element. Yes, it still highlights your spenders to show your next cast is free.
  
  
• Oblation increased to 15% mitigation but its duration has been reduced from 10 to 7 seconds.
• Abyssal Drain and C&S given 2 charges, at 30s recharge time.
• Abyssal MP gen increase to 600 MP per enemy hit, C&S to 1800 MP (since it appears to hit thrice).
• C&S heals for 600 potency (3 hits of 200 potency each).
• Living Shadow reworked to have a far more responsive summon and thereafter reduce your damage by 25% while your shadow duplicates your actions at 50% effectiveness (for a net 12.5% damage increase from each action itself and 50% increase to Blood, HP, and MP generation). Duration reduced to compensate.
• Living Dead is now just a longer Holmgang with a pre-stage as not to waste its rather long duration.
  
  Voila; choiceful and significant self-sustain, a noticeable Oblation that can be better used to fill between TBNs, a reason for the C&S/AD pairing, an interesting Living Shadow, and a functional Living Dead.

Crazier Rework (Preview / Scattered Thoughts Only; Work in Progress)

• Role Actions removed. DRK gains its own, distinct versions of an immediate threat-grab and stun and gains a further, unique defensive cooldown. Shirk and Arm's Length are gone; the first's function can already be met by the threat-grab skills and the second's are merely redundant with Plunge (as a --more skillful-- knockback-cancel) and the added defensive.
• Dark Passenger takes the place of Dark Arts, but as a dynamic follow-up oGCD (with various animations), rather than requiring a preparatory oGCD; this should make it feel more responsive and increase DRK's diversity of animations.
• DRK's unique tank features are that it can consume its own HP to, in effect, bank eHP and improve healers' use of downtime and more fluidly decrease damage taken spikes (for greater rDPS burst opportunities and smoother tank damage intake) and has strong and versatile focus utility centered on follow-up oGCDs and reactive procs. Oh, and it can use Shadowy doppelgangers to briefly hold mobs targeting the DRK in place even as the actual DRK moves away.
• Consuming and generating MP generates Shadow. Shadow can be used for various utility functions.
• Consuming and generating HP generates Blood. Blood can be used for self-saves
• Living Shadow is afforded by Blood and Shadow, both, generated. (It is bottlenecked by the smaller of either.) It has no hard cooldown and has variable duration, similar to a MCH turret/Queen.
• Blood Weapon and Shadowskin are now drain toggles (of variable rate). They consume their opposite resources over time in order to increase Attack Speed (which in turn, indirectly, increases resource generation) or to gain certain further passive effects (TBD, but largely surrounding reduced enemy accuracy against you, though such would require that I rework the existing barebone evasion system into something actually worthwhile).
• (Again, this is still just the beginning kernels of a design.)

[C0ATL]

Blood Weapon removed; it's just a (finnicky) free Edge/Flood per minute, basically bloat.
Darkside removed; potencies increased to compensate. It was a waste of gauge anyways.
Dark Arts is now just a proc that appears on your status bar, rather than requiring its own UI element.
Abyssal Drain and C&S given 2 charges, at 30s recharge time.
Blood Weapon removed; it's just a (finnicky) free Edge/Flood per minute, basically bloat.
Darkside removed; potencies increased to compensate. It was a waste of gauge anyways.
Dark Arts is now just a proc that appears on your status bar, rather than requiring its own UI element. Yes, it still highlights your spenders to show your next cast is free.
Oblation increased to 15% mitigation but its duration has been reduced from 10 to 7 seconds.
Abyssal Drain and C&S given 2 charges, at 30s recharge time.
Abyssal MP gen increase to 600 MP per enemy hit, C&S to 1800 MP (since it appears to hit thrice).
C&S heals for 600 potency (3 hits of 200 potency each).
Living Shadow reworked to have a far more responsive summon and thereafter reduce your damage by 25% while your shadow duplicates your actions at 50% effectiveness (for a net 12.5% damage increase from each action itself and 50% increase to Blood, HP, and MP generation). Duration reduced to compensate.

Like these changes. Blood weapon should be baked into Delirium. Its the same CD, and ppl use it at the same time anyway. Button bloat at this point. I wouldnt call it a minimalistic fix, since it removes 2 of the 'class mechanic gauges' and those would need to be replaced with something, just like all the other classes have.
Only issue I have with your suggestions is Living Dead being a longer Holmgang. The reason why I didnt include this into my initial post, despite thinking about it was because i dont want another ability taken from warrior , renamed, and given to the dark knight. No, I dont have a solution for a different working invincibility other than the ones already present, but I would really like LD to not be a copied ability.

All of that being said, my overall opinion on your fix is divided. It's weird, because despite almost all changes being good, I feel that all of them put together would lead to a very simple (and by extension a boring) job to play. Old SMN was clunky and weird sometimes, but at least it kept you on your toes. New SMN is a busy class, button wise, but empty. Dont want to denigrate summoner mains - its my fav job after DRK - but now its 'monkey see button light up. monkey press button.' and all we have to worry about is where we stand in fights. SMN is a very good example of overoptimization and simplification leading to a good spec, but unchallenging to play. I wouldnt like to see DRK end up in the same spot.