Spoiler, Sploilers, and more Spoilers

[xenahawk]

You are right, and you forgot how overly sentimental it is to appeal to feelings rather than logic.
Also, how does time travel work? Sometimes you have different time lines (G'raha from ShB) sometimes you don't, like in EW. They tell you you can't change anything and all of a sudden you might as well be the cause of the Final Days. If we hadn't been there, would it all had been the same? Elpis just took place so we met the final boss and it didn't feel as it had appeared out of the blue and to go full fanservice. And what with the meteor showers? Why did they happen?
All in all, I enjoyed the story, but I was expecting a lot more and I hate time travels precisely because these kinds of things happens.

Well to me i thought that at first that i may have been the cause but i changed my mind on that because it was the news of no life found that caused it to spiral if anything you were the reason Why venat chose a different path then the convocation. Now yeah i can see it as being the convenient story plot but it works. I personally loved the story. I find mysdlf thinking here and there about what i might have changed but again that dont change that i loved the story we got either.

[KizuyaKatogami]

This is why I don't have problem with the way Zodiak is handled. We only think he's big because we were ignorant. I think people want to see a "concrete/definite" big bad evil, but that's not what the story trying to create. The big bag evil of this story is not a person or object, but the fundamental ideas behind societies.

Well when they advertised this entire 8-10 year arc as the ZODIARK AND HYDAELYN ARC, and then just kill one of them off very quickly into the expansion, there is a pretty big problem to that. Zodiark wasn’t even a big bad evil to begin with, we’ve known this for a long time now. The fact is he(and even hydaelyn) basically got shafted in favor of a randomly asspulled character and story premise.

[Raven2014]

Did you notice how every single of your explanations depends on:

1 - accepting that all societies that achieve perfection will die

This isn't a known fact even in our real world. .

And ... this is not the real world, so what's your point? I mean do you think the real world will see all the world leaders come together like shown in the game? Or because real world doesn't use magic, we gonna ignore that in a story context? I don't base my POV on real world logic, which I absolutely don't understand why some people insist in doing. No, I base my POV on the framework set up by the story, not the real world, because this is not the real world.

Secondly: it has nothing to do with accepting. Metion wasn't prophizing, she merely reports on the "fact" she observed in the hundred or thousand of world she saw. In real life term, it means you had observe an experiment that many times and all see the same conclusion. It's call empirical proof, and even if there is no an iron-clad theorical model for it, in the fact of overwhelming empirical proof you just have to assume it is true. FYI, a lot of modern physic application are still based on empirical result while the theorical model still contain blackbox area that's not well understood (for example in the field of aerodynamic). And like I said, the uncany resemblance between Ra'ha and the ancient societies is meant to provide the final proof to justify Venat decision ... within the story context.

[KizuyaKatogami]

And ... this is not the real world, so what's your point? I mean do you think the real world will see all the world leaders come together like shown in the game? Or because real world doesn't use magic, we gonna ignore that in a story context? I don't base my POV on real world logic, which I absolutely don't understand why some people insist in doing. No, I base my POV on the framework set up by the story, not the real world, because this is not the real world.

Secondly: it has nothing to do with accepting. Metion wasn't prophizing, she merely reports on the "fact" she observed in the hundred or thousand of world she saw. In real life term, it means you had observe an experiment that many times and all see the same conclusion. It's call empirical proof, and even if there is no an iron-clad theorical model for it, in the fact of overwhelming empirical proof you just have to assume it is true. FYI, a lot of modern physic application are still based on empirical result while the theorical model still contain blackbox area that's not well understood (for example in the field of aerodynamic). And like I said, the uncany resemblance between Ra'ha and the ancient societies is meant to provide the final proof to justify Venat decision ... within the story context.

You quoted the wrong person lol.Irregardless though, Meteion also supposedly saw our world eventually die off as well, hence her dialogue in the trial fight. However, we were able to stop her and stall that end. So why are we any different than all those other civilizations?

[Lauront]

To be honest, my main point is more about Meteion than Venat, as Meteion's inclusion explains everything that people often question about the plot.

Did you notice how every single of your explanations depends on:

1 - accepting that all societies that achieve perfection will die

This isn't a known fact even in our real world. We simply don't know, there might be already an eternal intergalatic civilization out there. The writers however decided it is true, as Meteion's whole being depends on it, and ask you to believe such a huge claim by showing the conclusion of several societies that were good and then became bad. This is content for years worth of stories, summed into poorly contextualized areas and a dungeon; not eveybody will just "accept" it as fact when it does so little to convince us.

2 - opposite to what all these years of FFXIV would tell us, Zodiark isn't opposed by anybody actually

Light and darkness, statis and movement, umbral and astral? The real opposition in EW is hope and despair and there's no place for Zodiark in this. When we think of Venat's actions as opposing Meteion rather than Zodiark's followers, any answers to any questioning of Venat's actions pretty much write themselves, which includes she thinking this or that, or the ancient's way of life being this or that. Do you see the disconnect, when so many people see a problem with Venat's actions? Many are arguing from the point of saving the ancient's world, not opposing Meteion and the ideology she represents. Which, again, you need to buy the whole thing for it to make sense.

I think that this is the source of all these problems people are having with the plot... from Venat's actions, to Zodiark being in fact a minor villain. Personally while I greatly disliked Venat and what she did (including her being literally Hydaelyn, instead of it being literally just a primal), I really think all of those problems have a common source which is Meteion and her ideology feeling so forced and unnatural.

Agreed. It is mere narration in the end and one can refuse to acknowledge it as 1) inevitable with regard to the Ancients, because it simply wasn't shown to be - at best they had to draw on proxies where she stimulated the decline in question and 2) inevitable as a matter of fact or logic. It is neither. This poster here had a good takedown of all the plot holes and weaknesses of the story and Venat's motivation.

And ... this is not the real world, so what's your point? I mean do you think the real world will see all the world leaders come together like shown in the game? Or because real world doesn't use magic, we gonna ignore that in a story context? I don't base my POV on real world logic, which I absolutely don't understand why some people insist in doing. No, I base my POV on the framework set up by the story, not the real world, because this is not the real world.

Secondly: it has nothing to do with accepting. Metion wasn't prophizing, she merely reports on the "fact" she observed in the hundred or thousand of world she saw. In real life term, it means you had observe an experiment that many times and all see the same conclusion. It's call empirical proof, and even if there is no an iron-clad theorical model for it, in the fact of overwhelming empirical proof you just have to assume it is true. FYI, a lot of modern physic application are still based on empirical result while the theorical model still contain blackbox area that's not well understood (for example in the field of aerodynamic). And like I said, the uncany resemblance between Ra'ha and the ancient societies is meant to provide the final proof to justify Venat decision ... within the story context.

Which it fails to do, for a multitude of reasons. The problem here is that the "empirical proof" is severely tainted and amounts to little more than rushed narration. It's all the more easy for me to simply reject it on that basis.

[Lium]

You quoted the wrong person lol.Irregardless though, Meteion also supposedly saw our world eventually die off as well, hence her dialogue in the trial fight. However, we were able to stop her and stall that end. So why are we any different than all those other civilizations?

Because of Hermes' question. Is mankind worth saving? That's what the whole thing is about. We have to provide the answer. Otherwise, we end up like all those other dead civilizations.

[Raven2014]

Well when they advertised this entire 8-10 year arc as the ZODIARK AND HYDAELYN ARC, and then just kill one of them off very quickly into the expansion, there is a pretty big problem to that. Zodiark wasn’t even a big bad evil to begin with, we’ve known this for a long time now. The fact is he(and even hydaelyn) basically got shafted in favor of a randomly asspulled character and story premise.

Eh ... and exactly how is this new?

Did you forget in 3.0 the game the story was supposed to resolve the Dragonsong war with Nidhogg as the supposed ultimate boss. We killed him like half way through the story, then spent the rest of the story putting out the fire in Isghard while finding out the victim is actually the bad guys all alone. The final boss was also someone who just got introduce in the same expack. Like ... this is clearly the style of the story.

And no, like I said the End Singer is about as irrelevant as Zodiak, just because she's the final boss doesn't mean she's meant to be taken as the "ultimate core" of the story. Just like Zodiak she's just another vessel/symptol of the real problem. And we have been consistently exposing to the "core" of the story throughout all the game cycle, there is no thing ass-pull about it.

Again, this feels like just people are used to have a marvel/comic style story structure with a clear and definite final boss and has trouble appreciating a more abstracted story telling.

[Lium]

Eh ... and exactly how is this new?

Did you forget in 3.0 the game the story was supposed to resolve the Dragonsong war with Nidhogg as the supposed ultimate boss. We killed him like half way through the story, then spent the rest of the story putting out the fire in Isghard while finding out the victim is actually the bad guys all alone. The final boss was also someone who just got introduce in the same expack. Like ... this is clearly the style of the story.

And no, like I said the End Singer is about as irrelevant as Zodiak, just because she's the final boss doesn't mean she's meant to be taken as the "ultimate core" of the story. Just like Zodiak she's just another vessel/symptol of the real problem. And we have been consistently exposing to the "core" of the story throughout all the game cycle, there is no thing ass-pull about it.

Again, this feels like just people are used to have a marvel/comic style story structure with a clear and definite final boss and has trouble appreciating a more abstracted story telling.

Just a quick clarification, Estinien was actually introduced in ARR as part of the DRG job quests. So he was already familiar with many players.

I agree with the rest of your points. Neither Zodiark or Meteion were the villains in the story. It was Despair.

[Raven2014]

Which it fails to do, for a multitude of reasons. The problem here is that the "empirical proof" is severely tainted and amounts to little more than rushed narration. It's all the more easy for me to simply reject it on that basis.

And ... I don't see any of that, unless you gonna point them out? Are you referring to the fact she pushed some society that was on the brink to their death? I don't see that as taint result. She only did that after seeing it already happened to hundred of worlds (without her meddling) so now she just decide to hasten the process. Again, is this true in "real life", maybe yes maybe no, but it's clear from the story framework it's meant to be taken that way.

I guess this is not something that can be reconcile. When I first finished the story I thought it's flaw too at first, but after a week and playing through some of the dungeon again, re-watching the cutsceens I start connecting the dots, and for me I believe I was able to see the intention of the writers, and I'm happy with it.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Eh ... and exactly how is this new?

Did you forget in 3.0 the game the story was supposed to resolve the Dragonsong war with Nidhogg as the supposed ultimate boss. We killed him like half way through the story, then spent the rest of the story putting out the fire in Isghard while finding out the victim is actually the bad guys all alone. The final boss was also someone who just got introduce in the same expack. Like ... this is clearly the style of the story.

And no, like I said the End Singer is about as irrelevant as Zodiak, just because she's the final boss doesn't mean she's meant to be taken as the "ultimate core" of the story. Just like Zodiak she's just another vessel/symptol of the real problem. And we have been consistently exposing to the "core" of the story throughout all the game cycle, there is no thing ass-pull about it.

Again, this feels like just people are used to have a marvel/comic style story structure with a clear and definite final boss and has trouble appreciating a more abstracted story telling.

We still fight nidhogg in 3.3 though lol, but yes it was mainly to stop the dragonsong war, which…within our first few minutes of being there, we realize a part of the problem is with Ishgard itself. But that’s a very different situation as that’s all isolated in one expansion. This is an arc that has been going, again, for 8-10 years, where they expressed numerous times this expansion would be dealing with the saga of Hydaelyn and Zodiark to the point the literal Amano art was depicting both of them together. Don’t really see how this is the style of the story when in ARR it was clear the end antagonists were the garleans,SB it was zenos, etc etc. The point is even Elidibus got shafted as well, whereas Venat at least got an entire arc dedicated to her in Elpis and Hydaelyn has had a good chunk of cutscenes. Zodiark literally got 10 mins and then was killed off and 10 minutes later we’re playing dress up with bunnies. Great storytelling.