Spoiler, Sploilers, and more Spoilers

[Ririta]

I couldn't help but feel unsatisfied at the conclusion of Endwalker, and the criticisms levied in this thread pretty succinctly explain why, I think.

Particularly, that scene where Meteion goes full goth and the memory wipe happens. It just feels so contrived. Why was Hermes able to restrain us after we completely bodied him? Why did Hermes have access to the super magical memory wipe MacGuffin that was never mentioned before or after this zone? Why did no one try to stop it from executing, and instead just tried to attack Hermes? Why are there random portals people can open that teleport you away from the facility? Why didn't Emet or Hythlo leave (we've literally seen emet flying, can hythlo not?) when the portal was open instead of literally standing still and talking? Why did Venat not even ATTEMPT to convince Emet and Hythlo of what truly happened? In fact, since when could we even time travel, and why haven't we done it before? Why, why, why?

And that's just one cutscene. In general, the whole expansion just left me with so many questions that, disappointingly, have no reasonable answers. The more you think about it, the more poorly constructed it all feels.

In an ironic twist, Zenos of all people ended up being the best character of the expansion, IMO.

Venat didn't even need to try convincing anybody, she trains us to do the echo showing its something that can be triggered whenever we want. All she had to do was to show them what happened... and they remember that something weird had happened at that tower, too, so Venat being a respected figure in their society, wouldn't it be super easy to convince them to remember?

I figure that halfway through the expansion they've decided that birb girl was going to be a thing so everything needs to fit her inclusion even if it doesn't makes sense, that includes this time travel, the mind wipe, the sundering, dynamis... everything is to fit her into the story.

[QT_Melon]

On a side note about Magic Mike Memory MacGuffin 2002 - I have a feeling this may not be the last time we see this device considering the After Credits scene with Elidibus (kinda looking like Venat's little brother in hair color) is mentioning Pandemonium and mentioning that we were also in Elpis. However, at the time Elidibus is wearing a white robe and a WHITE mask, not his Red Convocation one. So I wouldn't be surprised if more time hijinks will be on its way since this may be pre-dating his leader role in the Convocation.

[Raven2014]

Venat didn't even need to try convincing anybody, she trains us to do the echo showing its something that can be triggered whenever we want. All she had to do was to show them what happened... and they remember that something weird had happened at that tower, too, so Venat being a respected figure in their society, wouldn't it be super easy to convince them to remember?

First, you're right that Venat could have convince the 14 "if she wants to". And you can see why if you piece several points together. A lot of people complain about Epis as pointless. It would be if the sole purpose is to identify the the threat. But that wasn't the only thing the story wanted to do. It's there to show us the "flaws" of the ancient society. There are several, but they all share a single thread: they had grown very apathetic toward the idea of suffering and death. Not only to their creation, but also themselves. Remember they describe death as something "beautiful", one of the ancient infact keep insisting Venat to seek her own death which she was clearly uncomfortable about, but couldn't reject it outright due to social norm.


Second, if you look at the last civilization shown in the Dead End dungeon ... see any similarity there between the Ra'Ha and ancient?

- A society had reached the heavenly pinnacle: check.
- Had grown completely apathetic toward the concept of death: check.
- Treating death as something "beautiful": check.
- Similarity in atire: check.

Do you think all of that are just one big design coincidence? The final day is just ONE way for the world to end, in fact Miteon said it's a gift of early death that meant to save humanity from the other eventuality. And I believe Ra'ha is there to show exactly the end of the ancient society even if they manage to resolve the Final Day issue. Remember even Emer-Setch himself wonder "what the big deal when someone passing away and why do I have to be sad about it?". So while he can be trusted to lead the 14 to resolve the Final Day issue (if he's made aware of it), Venat known he can not be entrusted to change the ancient society.


So yes, Venat could have worked with the 14 to stop the final day, I believe it's well within their ability to stop it. But that would only treat the symptol, not the cause. Venat decided for them to have a real future, they must address the core problem:

- She probably didn't try to stop the final day. Hoping it would help change the society.
- She probably didn't try to stop Zodiak summoning, know he gonna be the insurance policy if she fails to convince the ancient.
- She tried to convince her people one last time and failed. Thus she sundered the world to force the change, with Zodiak in place to buy the necessary time.


This is why I don't have problem with the way Zodiak is handled. We only think he's big because we were ignorant. I think people want to see a "concrete/definite" big bad evil, but that's not what the story trying to create. The big bag evil of this story is not a person or object, but the fundamental ideas behind societies.

[Jandor]

I just felt that we only saw the end results, and while sad - there was less impact of if/when the sisters may have actually found some joy in meeting civilizations only to see it really ripped away which heightened their emotions.

Not quite the same thing, but it's implied that Meteion played a role in the downfall of at least one of the civilizations.

One of the logs in the 2nd part of the Dead Ends talks about how an alien life form appeared before the Government, and they take that visit as proof they're on the right path and need to up their efforts against the rebels. They wipe each other out in the ensuing war.

That's got to sting a tad if you're the visitor that triggered that little nuclear apocalypse.

-----

Some of the quests in Thule seem to hint we might get some follow up, so hopefully we'll get to find out a bit more about Meteion's visits as well.

[Bright-Flower]

Not quite the same thing, but it's implied that Meteion played a role in the downfall of at least one of the civilizations.

One of the logs in the 2nd part of the Dead Ends talks about how an alien life form appeared before the Government, and they take that visit as proof they're on the right path and need to up their efforts against the rebels. They wipe each other out in the ensuing war.

That's got to sting a tad if you're the visitor that triggered that little nuclear apocalypse.

-----

Some of the quests in Thule seem to hint we might get some follow up, so hopefully we'll get to find out a bit more about Meteion's visits as well.

It read to me like they were already sure of themselves and just using her visit as more propaganda, and less that her arrival triggered anything.

[Rezef]

Time travel can be a great setting for storytelling i.e. Steins Gate but when you deal with time travel you're extremely prone to create paradoxes. Which happened first? Venat giving us the Elpis flower or us telling her in Elpis facility about it. In other word which came first the chicken or the egg paradox.

[kpxmanifesto]

Sorry i have to say it: enemy not at full strengh, time travel, memory erase.

All this is a really, really cheap resource to tell a history.

Is used a lot becouse is easy to fix or manipulate everything.

im dissapointed nothing else.

Yeah, I agree. I commented about this a lot on the lore sub-forums and I'll reiterate it here: Meteion and Dynamis are weak plot devices used to explain the final days.

Also, the memory erasure was done out of convenience for the writers. Because these important characters' memories were erased, the writers don't have to spend more time writing about an altered future or an alternate timeline. The memory erasure was an easy way out for the writers.

[Alleo]

No she would have followed the same path. We could not change the events cause as far as time was concerned they happened before we ever arrived there. Time travel plays heavily on the fact that you cant predict the future or change the past. But there elements of the past that aid in shaping the future. In Venat case were are a element of her past so she knew we would be going back in time at some point.

Cel1790 gave a good explanation..then me. lol

But how can it happen the same way? How does it make sense that somehow Venat was able to get the very same information without us? Why would they even investigate Hermes if they never knew about the Final Days, which is something we told them? And we cant have gone back into the past before that because we died thanks to Black Rose. The original future would have been a land without their WoL thus without us traveling back.

[BluexBird]

Time travel can be a great setting for storytelling i.e. Steins Gate but when you deal with time travel you're extremely prone to create paradoxes. Which happened first? Venat giving us the Elpis flower or us telling her in Elpis facility about it. In other word which came first the chicken or the egg paradox.

You mentioned Steins;Gate, but Steins;Gate approach to time-travel is the "multiple universes" approach, and not the "single timeline" one used in Endwalker and other media. Even though it appears as though Okabe is only experiencing "one timeline", every time it triggers and he gets new memories, the universe has now changed - it's different. That's why he even has the divergence meter, which can be used to check which "universe" he is in.

But I see a lot of people asking this question - what came first? Well, in the "single timeline" scenario, assuming time-travel is possible, everything that is supposed to happen, will happen.

This is what happens in the movie Interstellar. Everyone went crazy at the end when they realized the main character was the one who was sending the messages to himself in the past. But WHICH ONE HAPPENED FIRST?! This assumes there was a "first" version of the universe in which he didn't see the message, because he hadn't gone to the future yet, etc. But that's not how it works. Because as I said - everything that is supposed to happen, will happen.

It's the exact same concept in Endwalker.

Now I for one didn't like Interstellar. I've seen enough time-travel to not be amazed by the concept when it's used. But I did like what they did on Endwalker. Especially because it meant us getting to see the Ascians before everything got destroyed. We got to see them interacting with one another.

It was a nice touch. The memory wipe bit was a bit meh, but overall I thought it was a good story.

Another story that uses the "single timeline" mechanic is Harry Potter, in the third book/movie. When Harry goes back in the past and realizes he was the one who saved himself.

[Ririta]

snip

To be honest, my main point is more about Meteion than Venat, as Meteion's inclusion explains everything that people often question about the plot.

Did you notice how every single of your explanations depends on:

1 - accepting that all societies that achieve perfection will die

This isn't a known fact even in our real world. We simply don't know, there might be already an eternal intergalatic civilization out there. The writers however decided it is true, as Meteion's whole being depends on it, and ask you to believe such a huge claim by showing the conclusion of several societies that were good and then became bad. This is content for years worth of stories, summed into poorly contextualized areas and a dungeon; not eveybody will just "accept" it as fact when it does so little to convince us.

2 - opposite to what all these years of FFXIV would tell us, Zodiark isn't opposed by anybody actually

Light and darkness, statis and movement, umbral and astral? The real opposition in EW is hope and despair and there's no place for Zodiark in this. When we think of Venat's actions as opposing Meteion rather than Zodiark's followers, any answers to any questioning of Venat's actions pretty much write themselves, which includes she thinking this or that, or the ancient's way of life being this or that. Do you see the disconnect, when so many people see a problem with Venat's actions? Many are arguing from the point of saving the ancient's world, not opposing Meteion and the ideology she represents. Which, again, you need to buy the whole thing for it to make sense.

I think that this is the source of all these problems people are having with the plot... from Venat's actions, to Zodiark being in fact a minor villain. Personally while I greatly disliked Venat and what she did (including her being literally Hydaelyn, instead of it being literally just a primal), I really think all of those problems have a common source which is Meteion and her ideology feeling so forced and unnatural.