Spoiler, Sploilers, and more Spoilers

[Jandor]

The time travel is fine, what gets me really is how quickly Venat jumps to that conclusion. Really? I must be a time traveler? No possibility that you just forgot or someone copied your spell or something? No? Ok then.

[Bhearil]

The time travel is fine, what gets me really is how quickly Venat jumps to that conclusion. Really? I must be a time traveler? No possibility that you just forgot or someone copied your spell or something? No? Ok then.

Probably like in some fantasy settings, any spell has a "mark" of the caster who performed it: Its not that she recognized the spell but she recognized her personal mana signature on it and since she didnt met you it must mean that you come from the future, specially when mind manipulation is a very serious issue on the Ancients time (Hermes mentions that his creation only alters certain mind patterns on animals and anything more drastic would have needed permissions from high places).

In any case seems the normal timeline fixes itself following Einsten theory (even if you travel to the past nothing will change because you always traveled to the past) if closed time loops. The only oddball is Graha Tia that managed to jump from an "Bad End" paralel world to ours but thats probably to means used being different from Alexander and normal time magic

[Alleo]

But I see a lot of people asking this question - what came first? Well, in the "single timeline" scenario, assuming time-travel is possible, everything that is supposed to happen, will happen.

This is what happens in the movie Interstellar. Everyone went crazy at the end when they realized the main character was the one who was sending the messages to himself in the past. But WHICH ONE HAPPENED FIRST?! This assumes there was a "first" version of the universe in which he didn't see the message, because he hadn't gone to the future yet, etc. But that's not how it works. Because as I said - everything that is supposed to happen, will happen.

It's the exact same concept in Endwalker.

But how can it all still happen in one single timeline when Shadowbringers was about Graha changing the timeline (creating another version with that act) from us being death and the future being bad to us surviving? In that death timeline our version was not able to travel to the past yet seemingly up until shadowbringers everything was the same because it was only then when the timelines went into different ways. Yet Venat still gives us the flower as a hint to look for Elpis. And seemingly the whole plan of hers was already in motion.

I really hope they drop the time travel stuff in future expansions or try to stick with one version of it...either not being able to change the past at all or being able to change it and create other versions of the time line with that.

[Bhearil]

But how can it all still happen in one single timeline when Shadowbringers was about Graha changing the timeline (creating another version with that act) from us being death and the future being bad to us surviving? In that death timeline our version was not able to travel to the past yet seemingly up until shadowbringers everything was the same because it was only then when the timelines went into different ways. Yet Venat still gives us the flower as a hint to look for Elpis. And seemingly the whole plan of hers was already in motion.

I really hope they drop the time travel stuff in future expansions or try to stick with one version of it...either not being able to change the past at all or being able to change it and create other versions of the time line with that.

Its pretty simple:Time travel doesnt change anything in the past, so Graha Tia traveled to a different universe where a Graha Tia was supposed to come so that different universe didnt end like his. Its les changing the future but setting himself on another universe that was saved

You could discuss about the free will and destiny like on Matrix though (Neo breaking the vase after Oracle warns him beforehand making him to break the vase while looking for it), like if Graha Tia changed the timeline with his direct actions or just by existing would have caused ripples in time that would have ended in the same result no matter what.

Future is set in stone or not depending if the setting is based on "Fate" or not somethng we dont know even if the in character idea is to "pave their way to the future"

[Elgeron]

You mentioned Steins;Gate, but Steins;Gate approach to time-travel is the "multiple universes" approach, and not the "single timeline" one used in Endwalker and other media.

The issue I see is that if I'm not mistaken, FF XIV uses both approaches at the same time.

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes.../#sidestory_08

Here in this side stories is established that those on the "bad timeline" didn't felt the effects of G'raha's actions and in fact realized they had created an alternative timeline. Then they decide to use what they had learned to better their own world. I quote:

"In my mind’s eye, I glimpsed a world where the Eighth Umbral Calamity had never come to pass, where Eorzea’s champion bestrode the realm, unbroken. But just as suddenly, I saw that this was G’raha Tia’s future, and not ours. Yet the skills we had honed to make that dream a reality were still ours to employ[...]And so our journey began anew. Would that G’raha Tia could see all that we will accomplish. Though we shall remain forever on different pages of history─and different books, besides─I take comfort in knowing we strive for a future of the selfsame brightness."

The time travel of EW is quite an issue precisely because it contradicts established lore of how time travel works while creating a paradox. Unless for some unfathomable reason Elidibus' magic works differently, what should had happened is that a third new timeline should had emerged where the events of that day would had changed the natural course of history.

[Lium]

So yes, Venat could have worked with the 14 to stop the final day, I believe it's well within their ability to stop it. But that would only treat the symptol, not the cause. Venat decided for them to have a real future, they must address the core problem:

- She probably didn't try to stop the final day. Hoping it would help change the society.
- She probably didn't try to stop Zodiak summoning, know he gonna be the insurance policy if she fails to convince the ancient.
- She tried to convince her people one last time and failed. Thus she sundered the world to force the change, with Zodiak in place to buy the necessary time.

Thank you. For all of this.

I've said before that while all opinions are valid, and a lot of the criticism I've seen in this thread and elsewhere is warranted, some folks just so thoroughly missed the point and/or critical plot points. There are two specifically that spring to mind.

The first is time travel. There was one poster in this thread that was confused how the WoL travelled back in time. This one was very obvious. Elidibus straight up tells you he's using the last of his energy contained within the Crystal Tower to send you back in time. Then he dissipates. I'm not a fan of time travel in fantasy or science fiction, and I'm not defending the creative choice here to send the player back in time, but they at least provided and explanation as to how it happened and why. You may not like it, but it was there.

Second, the biggest question and criticism I've seen so far: Why didn't Venat tell the others what really happened? Which admittedly, I thought as well when I saw Venat escape with us. The person I quoted just succinctly laid out why, but there's an even simpler reason I've come to realize. The answer to Hermes' question.

This is quite literally what the entire story of FFXIV has been about. Is mankind worth saving? This is the question Venat seeks the answer to. And it's not as simple as destroying or capturing Meteion. As was shown with the Ea and the last civilization in the last dungeon, once a civilization reaches perfection, they seek death as a release. This is where the Ancients were headed. And we already saw signs of it.

This is why Venat as Hydaelyn tests us before sending us off to the final confrontation with Despair. We had to prove to her that we could confront and defeat Despair, thus answering Hermes' age-old question. You could certainly argue that Venat's choice was the wrong choice. You could even say all this is dumb or lazy writing or whatever you want to call it. And though every story has plotholes, these two points that I see brought up constantly here were actually addressed in the story itself.

[RyuDragnier]

The time travel of EW is quite an issue precisely because it contradicts established lore of how time travel works while creating a paradox. Unless for some unfathomable reason Elidibus' magic works differently, what should had happened is that a third new timeline should had emerged where the events of that day would had changed the natural course of history.

Counterpoint of that contradiction...Alexander. Alexander was summoned, and basically created a loop where its summoners are always sent into the past to create the tribe that would eventually give birth to those who summoned him. Notice the exact same issue? It's the exact same time travel idea, a "chicken and egg" type paradox where there is no answer.

[Kaliesto]

What i am hoping in the future is things scale back from here. We lose the blessing of light and echo powers, and we have to adjust to new adventures without it. Our power scaling from a story telling sense gets scaled way back, and we go through struggles of an adventurer.

Yeah I feel alot of people missed that point, we're about to get nerfed.

[Elgeron]

Counterpoint of that contradiction...Alexander. Alexander was summoned, and basically created a loop where its summoners are always sent into the past to create the tribe that would eventually give birth to those who summoned him. Notice the exact same issue? It's the exact same time travel idea.

Yet that doesn't diminish the problem. If anything that only means that the inconsistencies date back to ShB.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Yeah I feel alot of people missed that point, we're about to get nerfed.

I don’t think we will tbh. Dynamis is basically another plot device they can use in the future as an asspull of us being strong.