*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[QT_Melon]

In a sense...whether we like it or not we kinda did. (go with the plan the OP is referring to)

Despite the fact Hydaelyn did sunder the world - we still rejoined a multitude of times due to the calamities.

Which in a sense kinda makes it worse if acknowledging her path was right in sundering because we aren't 1/14th we aren't whole but definitely more than what we started with said calamities. That means we don't have any way of knowing if our 1/14th self would have handed the defeat to the Endsinger.

And if an eventual rebirth happened with the WoL after the 8th rejoining - would they be aware of dynamis? This is an established timeline now.
If all were rejoined would that mean our reformed selves would still be aware of dynamis?

[KizuyaKatogami]

The rejoining would sacrifice entire worlds to resurrect a deity that would inevitably falter. No it was not a moral imperative. Life had to face the reality of its existence and find a way forward.

You know this all rings incredibly hollow when Ironworks was willing to sacrifice an entire timeline to bring back the WoL. They were aware them messing with time could potentially erase all of them and yet they went through with it anyways. But it’s fine if they do it right? Since they’re the protagonists? But the antagonists should just sit down and not even try right?

[Lauront]

Just so I understand the point some people are making here about the "necessity" of sundering people to be able to better interact with Dynamis...

You mean to tell me that the Ancients can create a being capable of manipulating Dynamis to that degree, to effect their downfall... but they can't also create other beings to counteract that same thing? You know, create some entelechies with the express purpose to neutralize/destroy Meteion was somehow beyond their capacity?

...really?

Okay, then.

edit: On "genocide". The sundering killed far more people over the ~12000 years, through what became the new "cycle of life", diseases, wars and what have you, then the calamities ever could.

And it's not even close. Given a long enough timeline, the rejoinings are a moral imperative.

Exactly this.

[Nothv13]

Just so I understand the point some people are making here about the "necessity" of sundering people to be able to better interact with Dynamis...

You mean to tell me that the Ancients can create a being capable of manipulating Dynamis to that degree, to effect their downfall... but they can't also create other beings to counteract that same thing? You know, create some entelechies with the express purpose to neutralize/destroy Meteion was somehow beyond their capacity?

...really?

Okay, then.

edit: On "genocide". The sundering killed far more people over the ~12000 years, through what became the new "cycle of life", diseases, wars and what have you, then the calamities ever could.

And it's not even close. Given a long enough timeline, the rejoinings are a moral imperative.

You do know Emet admits to the WoL that the ancients would have never made it that far right?

[Theodric]

You do know Emet admits to the WoL that the ancients would have never made it that far right?

I've been led to believe that the dialogue is written differently in other languages, though even if we're being generous to English Emet and take it at face value the Unsundered were never given a fair opportunity to defy their fate, so I rather suspect it can be taken as being up in the air.

It's pretty easy for the player character to 'win' through convenient plot devices when the goal is to make them win no matter what, with little thought as to whether the established circumstances even make sense or not.

I do rather suspect that the Ancients would have fared better if not dealing with a subversive agent in their midst, though. That we can certainly agree upon!

[Nothv13]

I've been led to believe that the dialogue is written differently in other languages, though even if we're being generous to English Emet and take it at face value the Unsundered were never given a fair opportunity to defy their fate, so I rather suspect it can be taken as being up in the air.

It's pretty easy for the player character to 'win' through convenient plot devices when the goal is to make them win no matter what, with little thought as to whether the established circumstances even make sense or not.

I do rather suspect that the Ancients would have fared better if not dealing with a subversive agent in their midst, though. That we can certainly agree upon!

I'd like to know what the other translation say of that exchange. But remember, this is an Emet that had all his memories returned and was no longer the crazed one "serving" Zodiac.

I actually think the ancients would have failed miserably if they continued on their path. So few could even fathom Dynamis. So few understood despair. Creation magic was shown to be much more complex than simply thinking something into existence as even well designed creations that have gone through many revisions would act in a way outside of the designers hope. Trying to make a familiar that used and was susceptible to something the ancients barely even knew about yet understood is a recipe for destruction.

[Lium]

You do know Emet admits to the WoL that the ancients would have never made it that far right?

Not to mention there were actually two scenes during our time in Elpis that addresses this. The first was when Emet-Selch says that he is confiscating Meteion in the name of the Convocation for study and because it was too dangerous to be left alone once he realizes what it's capable of doing. This heavily implies that no one knew what this thing was exactly and had never seen anything like it before. It wasn't a familiar. It was something different. An "entelechy" which no one but Hermes knew anything about. In fact, during your investigation with Venat, you discover that he did all this in private. He never sought approval for his concept or his experiments.

Second - and this is the biggest thing - the memory wipe. Now, if you want to argue that was a contrivance to move the plot forward, I won't argue that. But it did at least explain why no counter was created, because per Hermes' instructions, they all believed Meteion was destroyed. All but Venat. And we know why she didn't create a counter. She had her own plan, controversial as it may have been.

But this is the kind of stuff I talk about when I say some people just completely missed the point or even missed crucial plot points.

[Alenore]

Not to mention there were actually two scenes during our time in Elpis that addresses this. The first was when Emet-Selch says that he is confiscating Meteion in the name of the Convocation for study and because it was too dangerous to be left alone once he realizes what it's capable of doing. This heavily implies that no one knew what this thing was exactly and had never seen anything like it before. It wasn't a familiar. It was something different. An "entelechy" which no one but Hermes knew anything about. In fact, during your investigation with Venat, you discover that he did all this in private. He never sought approval for his concept or his experiments.

Second - and this is the biggest thing - the memory wipe. Now, if you want to argue that was a contrivance to move the plot forward, I won't argue that. But it did at least explain why no counter was created, because per Hermes' instructions, they all believed Meteion was destroyed. All but Venat. And we know why she didn't create a counter. She had her own plan, controversial as it may have been.

But this is the kind of stuff I talk about when I say some people just completely missed the point or even missed crucial plot points.

Most things can be created without approval. No one is surprised that Meteion's concept wasn't submitted, nor that Azem could have created us without going throught the bureau. However it's pretty clear you're supposed to have the authorization to release a concept in the wild: the loophole is, the whole universe wasn't really monitored.

And yes, Emet-Selch admits the WoL fared better than they would have, considering their memories were wiped. We still wouldn't know what would have happened had they the knowledge of what hit them. We know why nobody tried to get rid of here, we just lament the fact that Venat decided herself that Ancients had to go to deal with that problem, without even trying to tell them what was going to happen.
Besides, what if she told them? If they didn't listen to what she had to say about Meteion and decided to just ignore her because they were now safe, she could have still sundered everything and enacted her plan.

Nobody is saying "Ancients with no knowledge of Meteion would have beaten her". No, they would just have hid behind Zodiark and kept going with their life while the rest of the universe suffered, unbeknownst to them.

[Alleo]

What is a genocide when all you erase is memories and not the soul themselves, who just reincarnate later? What is a mortal life to a being who will see that selfsame soul come back to an eternal state later on?
Emet-Selch himself says it: "I don't consider you to be alive, ergo i'm not commiting murder". He's just mending the broken souls and healing the world, in his view.

And they wanted to sacrifice the new life to get the old ones back so the new souls (or in some cases old Amaurotine souls that got reincarnated) would be forced to be a battery for Zodiark. Emet himself in Elpis was completely shocked by his future behavior. And it is strange behavior for a race that basically only lives to make their planet better. They are fine with someone stepping down and dieing but people willingly sacrificing themselves for Zodiark? And these souls were in a way seeing themselves as the Will of the star, probably no greater honor for their kind.

Also I wonder how bad it would have been if they exchanged these souls with those that did not want to be there. How would Zodiark be if the thoughts of those sacrificed would have been full of hatred for the Ancients?

[Lium]

One question I do have about all this is, what were the Ascians' plans going forward had they succeeded in Rejoining all the shards? Because that still wouldn't have prevented the Final Days from eventually happening again. Was it just to have Zodiark be around forever, keeping all the celestial currents or whatever in balance? If that's the case, wouldn't Zodiark continuously require sacrifices to remain powerful enough to hold the world together?