*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[EaraGrace]

Dynamis pushed us through it with the LB3, yes. But she only is ever surprised about it at the very end, when we *survive* it and when our friends save us with it. We may be on the power level of an ancient or somewhat close, as the WoL, but the 7 people we summon are not. What do you think 8 people who can manipulate aether to Emet's level would do in a fight? Bring azem and the gang and let's see what happens, along with some Hermes-made Entelechy infused with the hope of the Ancients for the continual survival of Etheirys to counteract the despair? We know good feelings exist, since pretty much every Elpis flower back then were white, in everybody's hands but Hermes.

My point is, they faced their despair, by sacrificing their number to counter the effect to the best of their knowledge. They didn't give in, the population wasn't wiped, they developed a countermeasure to that despair and its effect.
We did the same : we didn't give in, we studied the phenomenon, and then gambled the fate of the star by sending the only spaceship available for the Exodus, to try to defeat Meteion. Had we failed, the planet would be doomed.

Had they known about the cause, perhaps their course of action would have been different, but in the meantime peoplewere dying, and something had to be done.

I assume you refer to the last civilization we encounter. They didn't rely on Ra La for everything, but summoned him to end their existence, because they had nothing in life. Having spent their whole lives trying to facilitate their own lives, they became lost in apathy and had no taste for anything. Whereas Ancients still have purpose.

I’m more referring to the lead up to that, where our friends and comrades prevent us from being undone by their force of will, a product of dynamis. And they didn’t face despair, they rejected it and sought to remove it from the world, just as the Ea and the other civilizations did. The last civilization is just one more example of how the imitation of suffering is not an answer to it.

Remember, every paradise has its shadow.

And one correction. Aether cannot beat dynamis. Dynamis is more abundant than aether in the universe.

[Zoliru]

(Unless you're the same guy who posted something like this on reddit a few weeks back and claimed that Genocide is okay because the Ancients were superior.)

Oh i remember such a thread called "Would you join Emet Selch and the Ascians if you could?"

The poll ended with the below results:

-63 Yes, I would support Emet in bringing back the old world.
-155 No, too many sundered lives would be lost.
-18 Other, explain.

So it seems supporting Emet isnt just something a tiny minority of people would support, and keep in mind I just checked and that thread was a month ago, so before we had all the facts about the Ancients and Zodiarc, and with those, I am feeling even more people would have joined Emet than just one third.

The fact that the vast majority of Ancients didn't even know what Dynamis is. Even the Azems, who's entire point is travelling helping and learning new things knew virtually nothing about it outside of something exists. Power of creation is shown as much more complicated than just "your imagination". In fact it is shown to require extreme precision and understanding everything about the creation on a very deep level and it still not being fully understood as shown when creatures would do things and act it ways counter to how the designers believed they were designed. Not to mention, the stronger in Aether an ancient, then probably the less likelihood of being able to successfully make a dynamis using creature due to how aether drowns out the normal ambient dynamis of the planet.

Why do you believe Hermes was so extremely unique and nobody else can create anything similar even though they hold the power of creation. It is a skill that needs honing but it is not something only Hermes could achieve given time and a will.

I dont disagree that Hermes was great at creating concepts, especially unique ideas but that was due to his feelings and creativity, not because of some hidden power, there's was many more people living in Etherys at the time so the possibility of someone being able to create similar things is quite likely.


In addition your last statement is wrong, Hermes created Meiteion, he was an ancient with incredibly amounts of Aether like any other agent, so that proves you can create entelecheia as an ancient to be affected and even control dynamis, you just need to experiment more, and if the subject of dynamis becomes more wide spread as time passes, more ancients might have ideas on creating such concepts.

Though I do feel the fact that everyone is able to create a concept before even asking for authorization and calling it "an early test" before submission can be quite dangerous, definitely something that felt off.

This is just blatantly false. A most basic example directly countering this would be fables—short tales designed with the intent of teaching some sort of morality or life lesson. You absolutely can use writing to teach lessons—in any media, not just printed media. To say this makes it clear that you’ve never looked beyond the surface when it comes to a story. It’s very common for authors to push certain narratives and lessons in their writing if one knows where to look for them.

Made up stories cannot be used in serious argument.
Let's say you have two people arguing for something opposite happening in the future, someone literally makes up a fictional tale in the spot to support his argument, nobody would take that person seriously.
And as I have explained that story is wrong, because it is extremely unlike for a civilization to reach the state it had, yet have complete lack of self awareness and still struggle with concepts such as "reasons to live" which become irrelevant when one understands themselves and psychology aka your very nature and how it behaves.
But at the end of the day, the writer needed to show a fictional hyper civilization that was depressed to make the story work, it is fiction writing. Dont confuse that with real life truths.

[Alenore]

I’m more referring to the lead up to that, where our friends and comrades prevent us from being undone by their force of will, a product of dynamis. And they didn’t face despair, they rejected it and sought to remove it from the world, just as the Ea and the other civilizations did. The last civilization is just one more example of how the imitation of suffering is not an answer to it.

Remember, every paradise has its shadow.

And one correction. Aether cannot beat dynamis. Dynamis is more abundant than aether in the universe.

Yes, and yet Ancients were shown to be totally immune to the Song of Oblivion due to their aether density, and only their creations were affected. Meteion tells us "In like manner to the oblivion I send, I tried to drown out your aether with dynamis.". So it's even unclear if they would simply be affected by Meteion's attempt to unmake them, even more if prepared against the eventuality.
Thancred's wish was "survive", and thus it made Ultima Thule into a place where they could breath, walk, etc. But again, two can play this game and Hermes knows Dynamis well.

As for its power, it is described by Hermes himself to be very weak compared to aether, but abundant where aether is not present, for instance in space. What Meteion does, and why it's so potent, is using what Hermes mentioned: "what if we could turn the slow trickling of dynamis into a raging river", and just concentrate absurd amounts of dynamis to overpower the aether. That's what the song is, in the end: despair-infused dynamis, super-excited and concentrated, sent at whatever lives.


The civilizations she recreated fell to despair for very different reasons.

Dragons lived their lives and got attacked, and fell into despair when they were defeated and the land couldn't sustain their eggs.
Ea fell into despair when realizing everything would have an end, and at some point nothing would exist, and thought "eh, what now".
Omicrons sought to become the most powerful as a preemptive strike, and finally realized that with no peers, all their singular purpose lost meaning.
The fish people polluted their world while trying to expand without thinking, and then fell into despair.
The peace guys meant to unite everybody under a single banner to remove war, but ended making weapons that killed them all.
The Ra-La summoners in their "perfect paradise" found that they lost the taste to everything, and thus despaired because everything was pointless.

Whilethe last could be identified to Etheirys, as I said, they lacked the sense of purpose of betterment of the star itself and not only themselves. When they reached "enlightenment", they found no meaning in life, that what came before was useless since they created paradise and immortality.
And again, what if that specific world ends up despairing, and the Ancient's Etheirys follows the same path? Is being sundered and following the path of self destruction, or plantery changes that makes it unfit to live, better?

[sidurgu-12]

song of oblivion wasn't just affecting creation magick (which was already causing mass death and destruction) - it was causing the entire planet to rot.

[Nothv13]

...

Because in all of the time the ancients were around and knew about the Elpis flower, not a one other than Hermes paid any attention to Dynamis. It was, to some, at best a theory so weak it was not worth researching and others a completely unknown thing. Ancient society was not about uniqueness, it was about conformity for the greater good, hence why the masks, and unified robes existed. Those that were unique were special in the ancient society and would be sought out for spots on the convocation. Even Hythlodeus being so weak he couldn't transform was up for the convocation because of a unique trait, so it seems that uniqueness plays more of a role in selection than power

It was indeed Herme's passion and goal that led him to mess with dynamis. We don't know how long it took him to get as far as he did, and he did not keep record of it, even if there was another, they'd start from scratch as without the mid wipe Hermes would have been already drinking the despair coolaid and not will to help.

Yes they can create a creature of it, this does not mean they can control it. At best they could contain it within an aether creation like with Meiteion. One of the reason Venat sundered the world was to create people that while weaker in aether, they could tap into and use dynamis as their bodies didn't just repel it like the Ancient's bodies did. We also don't exactly know how strong in Aether Hermes is. Stronger than Hythlodeus and strong enough to transform (something that was considered a pretty average ability). Even if they did create an army of Dynamis familiars to wage war against Metieon, they'd have a planets worth of hope versus a universes worth of despair and no guarantee that their familiars would not be straight up corrupted by the vast amount of despair from Metieon, just like their other creations.

[Alenore]

Because in all of the time the ancients were around and knew about the Elpis flower, not a one other than Hermes paid any attention to Dynamis. It was, to some, at best a theory so weak it was not worth researching and others a completely unknown thing. Ancient society was not about uniqueness, it was about conformity for the greater good, hence why the masks, and unified robes existed. Those that were unique were special in the ancient society and would be sought out for spots on the convocation. Even Hythlodeus being so weak he couldn't transform was up for the convocation because of a unique trait, so it seems that uniqueness plays more of a role in selection than power

It was indeed Herme's passion and goal that led him to mess with dynamis. We don't know how long it took him to get as far as he did, and he did not keep record of it, even if there was another, they'd start from scratch as without the mid wipe Hermes would have been already drinking the despair coolaid and not will to help.

Yes they can create a creature of it, this does not mean they can control it. At best they could contain it within an aether creation like with Meiteion. One of the reason Venat sundered the world was to create people that while weaker in aether, they could tap into and use dynamis as their bodies didn't just repel it like the Ancient's bodies did. We also don't exactly know how strong in Aether Hermes is. Stronger than Hythlodeus and strong enough to transform (something that was considered a pretty average ability). Even if they did create an army of Dynamis familiars to wage war against Metieon, they'd have a planets worth of hope versus a universes worth of despair and no guarantee that their familiars would not be straight up corrupted by the vast amount of despair from Metieon, just like their other creations.

You can't say that from the amount of Ancients we met. Who's to say there isn't other people researching it? Even better : we know other people can, since the Elpis flower was created by another researcher by accident.
Hermes would just have to submit a concept of Meteion, and others could summon their own and improve on it.

The spots in the Convocations are not supposed to be for "uniqueness", but the best in their fields.
Hermes was picked for the seat of Fandaniel because he was an expert in extant phenomenas, of which dynamis and all things celestial.
Hythlodaeus and Emet-Selch were candidates because they had the required trait, which is a great aether vision.

Finally, Meteion had free will, which is why she even could become the threat she was now. But entelechy without free will exist : again, the Elpis flower.
And we *literally* had the hope of hundreds of people at best, and 7 who died for us, which proved enough to stabilize Ultima Thule enough. I think a planet worth of hope should be enough.

[Eylirria]

Just so I understand the point some people are making here about the "necessity" of sundering people to be able to better interact with Dynamis...

You mean to tell me that the Ancients can create a being capable of manipulating Dynamis to that degree, to effect their downfall... but they can't also create other beings to counteract that same thing? You know, create some entelechies with the express purpose to neutralize/destroy Meteion was somehow beyond their capacity?

...really?

Okay, then.

edit: On "genocide". The sundering killed far more people over the ~12000 years, through what became the new "cycle of life", diseases, wars and what have you, then the calamities ever could.

And it's not even close. Given a long enough timeline, the rejoinings are a moral imperative.

[EaraGrace]

…And again, what if that specific world ends up despairing, and the Ancient's Etheirys follows the same path? Is being sundered and following the path of self destruction, or plantery changes that makes it unfit to live, better?

There aether was immune sure, but the planet became nearly uninhabitable, their creation magicks birthed horrors unseen and it took a primal with half of their populations aether to contain it. And Thancreds, Estiniens, Ysthola/Urianger, and Aliesaie/Alphinauds wishes only worked due to their ability to effect change with dynamis. The Ancients would have been unmade immediately.

Sundered Etheirys could fall to despair sure, but the point of the Sundering was a test to see if life could be faced with suffering without a solution without giving into despair, a test not possible if a deity could answer the peoples prayers without ending life or making it unduly hard. It’s not that one is better, it’s that one leads to a world where people can handle struggle without turning to solutions that would falter or fail with time.

Just so I understand the point some people are making here about the "necessity" of sundering people to be able to better interact with Dynamis...

You mean to tell me that the Ancients can create a being capable of manipulating Dynamis to that degree, to effect their downfall... but they can't also create other beings to counteract that same thing? You know, create some entelechies with the express purpose to neutralize/destroy Meteion was somehow beyond their capacity?

...really?

Okay, then.

edit: On "genocide". The sundering killed far more people over the ~12000 years, through what became the new "cycle of life", diseases, wars and what have you, then the calamities ever could.

And it's not even close. Given a long enough timeline, the rejoinings are a moral imperative.

The rejoining would sacrifice entire worlds to resurrect a deity that would inevitably falter. No it was not a moral imperative. Life had to face the reality of its existence and find a way forward.

[Alenore]

Just so I understand the point some people are making here about the "necessity" of sundering people to be able to better interact with Dynamis...

You mean to tell me that the Ancients can create a being capable of manipulating Dynamis to that degree, to effect their downfall... but they can't also create other beings to counteract that same thing? You know, create some entelechies with the express purpose to neutralize/destroy Meteion was somehow beyond their capacity?

...really?

Okay, then.

edit: On "genocide". The sundering killed far more people over the ~12000 years, through what became the new "cycle of life", diseases, wars and what have you, then the calamities ever could.

And it's not even close. Given a long enough timeline, the rejoinings are a moral imperative.

I actually never thought about the cost in lives caused by wars and diseases and old age in my stance of "why are the rejoinings fine". And most of them probably weren't happy to go back to the star, unlike ancients who celebrate it.
The long enough timeline doesn't even need to be 12k years. Imagine the population never changed, it' take only 13 cycle of death/rebirth, less than 1300 years by all accounts lol.

[Lium]

Just so I understand the point some people are making here about the "necessity" of sundering people to be able to better interact with Dynamis...

You mean to tell me that the Ancients can create a being capable of manipulating Dynamis to that degree, to effect their downfall... but they can't also create other beings to counteract that same thing? You know, create some entelechies with the express purpose to neutralize/destroy Meteion was somehow beyond their capacity?

...really?

Okay, then.

Well, Emet-Selch did berate Hermes after he found out that he sent a bunch of those creations across the stars. He says something to the effect of "Did you not stop and think what would happen if they came across negative emotions?" So that sort of implied that it would be a disaster, and nothing they could do would really counteract it.

BUT, the answer to your question is, they did in fact come up with something that could counter Meteion: Zodiark. And it worked insofar as the star was saved, even if their civilization was not.