*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[Alenore]

I’m more referring to the lead up to that, where our friends and comrades prevent us from being undone by their force of will, a product of dynamis. And they didn’t face despair, they rejected it and sought to remove it from the world, just as the Ea and the other civilizations did. The last civilization is just one more example of how the imitation of suffering is not an answer to it.

Remember, every paradise has its shadow.

And one correction. Aether cannot beat dynamis. Dynamis is more abundant than aether in the universe.

Yes, and yet Ancients were shown to be totally immune to the Song of Oblivion due to their aether density, and only their creations were affected. Meteion tells us "In like manner to the oblivion I send, I tried to drown out your aether with dynamis.". So it's even unclear if they would simply be affected by Meteion's attempt to unmake them, even more if prepared against the eventuality.
Thancred's wish was "survive", and thus it made Ultima Thule into a place where they could breath, walk, etc. But again, two can play this game and Hermes knows Dynamis well.

As for its power, it is described by Hermes himself to be very weak compared to aether, but abundant where aether is not present, for instance in space. What Meteion does, and why it's so potent, is using what Hermes mentioned: "what if we could turn the slow trickling of dynamis into a raging river", and just concentrate absurd amounts of dynamis to overpower the aether. That's what the song is, in the end: despair-infused dynamis, super-excited and concentrated, sent at whatever lives.


The civilizations she recreated fell to despair for very different reasons.

Dragons lived their lives and got attacked, and fell into despair when they were defeated and the land couldn't sustain their eggs.
Ea fell into despair when realizing everything would have an end, and at some point nothing would exist, and thought "eh, what now".
Omicrons sought to become the most powerful as a preemptive strike, and finally realized that with no peers, all their singular purpose lost meaning.
The fish people polluted their world while trying to expand without thinking, and then fell into despair.
The peace guys meant to unite everybody under a single banner to remove war, but ended making weapons that killed them all.
The Ra-La summoners in their "perfect paradise" found that they lost the taste to everything, and thus despaired because everything was pointless.

Whilethe last could be identified to Etheirys, as I said, they lacked the sense of purpose of betterment of the star itself and not only themselves. When they reached "enlightenment", they found no meaning in life, that what came before was useless since they created paradise and immortality.
And again, what if that specific world ends up despairing, and the Ancient's Etheirys follows the same path? Is being sundered and following the path of self destruction, or plantery changes that makes it unfit to live, better?

[sidurgu-12]

song of oblivion wasn't just affecting creation magick (which was already causing mass death and destruction) - it was causing the entire planet to rot.

[EaraGrace]

…And again, what if that specific world ends up despairing, and the Ancient's Etheirys follows the same path? Is being sundered and following the path of self destruction, or plantery changes that makes it unfit to live, better?

There aether was immune sure, but the planet became nearly uninhabitable, their creation magicks birthed horrors unseen and it took a primal with half of their populations aether to contain it. And Thancreds, Estiniens, Ysthola/Urianger, and Aliesaie/Alphinauds wishes only worked due to their ability to effect change with dynamis. The Ancients would have been unmade immediately.

Sundered Etheirys could fall to despair sure, but the point of the Sundering was a test to see if life could be faced with suffering without a solution without giving into despair, a test not possible if a deity could answer the peoples prayers without ending life or making it unduly hard. It’s not that one is better, it’s that one leads to a world where people can handle struggle without turning to solutions that would falter or fail with time.

Just so I understand the point some people are making here about the "necessity" of sundering people to be able to better interact with Dynamis...

You mean to tell me that the Ancients can create a being capable of manipulating Dynamis to that degree, to effect their downfall... but they can't also create other beings to counteract that same thing? You know, create some entelechies with the express purpose to neutralize/destroy Meteion was somehow beyond their capacity?

...really?

Okay, then.

edit: On "genocide". The sundering killed far more people over the ~12000 years, through what became the new "cycle of life", diseases, wars and what have you, then the calamities ever could.

And it's not even close. Given a long enough timeline, the rejoinings are a moral imperative.

The rejoining would sacrifice entire worlds to resurrect a deity that would inevitably falter. No it was not a moral imperative. Life had to face the reality of its existence and find a way forward.

[Alenore]

There aether was immune sure, but the planet became nearly uninhabitable, their creation magicks birthed horrors unseen and it took a primal with half of their populations aether to contain it.
.....
It’s not that one is better, it’s that one leads to a world where people can handle struggle without turning to solutions that would falter or fail with time.

And Zodiark fixed these side effects. The sundered Source is less aetherically dense, so should feel the effects of the Final Days much quicker than old Etheirys. My point was about Ancients surviving to the unmaking Meteion loves to use on the Scions.
Steps :
- Summon Zodiark to forestall the doom ;
- Make entelchy automatas to infuse dynamis with hope ;
- Go to where Meteion is, before she spends 12k+ years simmering in her despair ;
- Blast her.
- Go home, unsummon Zodiark, rejoice in duty fulfiled.

Obviously it's an oversimplification, but we will literaly never know if it could even have worked since Venat decided to sunder everything. I strongly hope it somehow branched into a split timeline where they tried.


And again, life *had* a solution when faced to despair, and it was to use their tools of creation to recreate their home. They didn't "give in" like other civilizations. If it ended up in another dead planet, what's the issue with that really.
Zodiark wasn't an easy solution, they had to make sacrifices for the instant bucks, or wait a long time to amass the aether.
Also, why would creation actually fail in time? It had worked for them for literally their whole existence until attacked. Zodiark lasted 12000 years and through the Sundering. If anything, it was 14 times overpowered at least.
If anything, I trust creation magic more than moon-rabbits interstellar drive and having heroes manage to use a power they never heard about 3 days before.

[EaraGrace]

And Zodiark fixed these side effects. The sundered Source is less aetherically dense, so should feel the effects of the Final Days much quicker than old Etheirys. My point was about Ancients surviving to the unmaking Meteion loves to use on the Scions.
Steps :
- Summon Zodiark to forestall the doom ;
- Make entelchy automatas to infuse dynamis with hope ;
- Go to where Meteion is, before she spends 12k+ years simmering in her despair ;
- Blast her.
- Go home, unsummon Zodiark, rejoice in duty fulfiled.

What hope? That all struggle can be solved with reliance on Zodiark? The6 we’re literally praying to him after he forestalled the Final Days. And what happens when they are faced with the myriad of civilizations that fell to despair one after another? How does hope reliant on the elimination of suffering respond to the Ea or the Omicron or any of the dozens of civilizations that did not just accept death, but actively wanted it? She would unmake them as they arrive, or worse, the entelechys automatas (which doesn’t work, they have to be living beings to be emotional) may even find Meteion to be correct. In the time needed to develop the technologies and travel, Meteions song of oblivion would reign supreme.

Obviously it's an oversimplification, but we will literaly never know if it could even have worked since Venat decided to sunder everything. I strongly hope it somehow branched into a split timeline where they tried.

She sundered everything to force the question. Despair and suffering cannot be escaped, summoning a being to fix all your problems is avoidance.

And again, life *had* a solution when faced to despair, and it was to use their tools of creation to recreate their home. They didn't "give in" like other civilizations. If it ended up in another dead planet, what's the issue with that really.
Zodiark wasn't an easy solution, they had to make sacrifices for the instant bucks, or wait a long time to amass the aether.
Also, why would creation actually fail in time? It had worked for them for literally their whole existence until attacked. Zodiark lasted 12000 years and through the Sundering. If anything, it was 14 times overpowered at least.
If anything, I trust creation magic more than moon-rabbits interstellar drive and having heroes manage to use a power they never heard about 3 days before.

No they don’t have an answer. Being unwilling to accept suffering and anything less than “paradise” would give rise to the next Hermes. Suffering exists, it must be faced. Sacrificing more lives to bring back ones lost isn’t wisdom, it’s weakness.

Because aether works on a world that runs on aether, unlike 2/3 of the rest of existence. And it’s a power they’ve interacted with and used for much longer than that. As opposed to the Ancients who would lack the ability to see or interact with Meteion at all.