Endwalker Main Scenario Commentary & Feedback

[Rannie]

Yeah, final zone goes through three different themes based on when in the MSQ you're at.

The only disappointing thing is that once you're done, it's just always playing Footfalls. I like Footfalls, but I preferred the second theme for traveling around.

O.o when I go back there it's still playing Close in the Distance .... even after opening a dungeon... if i've confused anyone I mean the final zone area

Ultima Thule

[PangTong]

I’ve read through the thread and wonder if some of us have been playing the same game this whole time.

Regarding that

Not making Hydaelyn evil is one thing the writers completely deserve commendation for. Over the years I've had to deal with so many people who were so convinced that twist was coming that it seemed like they were actually hoping for that most shallow and meaningless of subversions. "The good guy was the bad guy all along". It would have undermined the story so badly if it truly ended up being that simple. Imagine how awful the story would have ended up being if it was really just, the Ascians were right all along, Zodiark is a good guy and Hydaelyn has been deceiving you the whole time. Imagine if that's what we got instead of Shadowbringers.

In the end Hydaelyn is neither good nor evil, which is perfect. How you see her ends up coming down to whether you agree with her reasoning. Endwalker is far from the perfect ending in many respects but on that point at least I'm glad it played out the way it did

[dynus]

It did feel a bit odd to me.

Like, in all those planets, not ONE of them was in a good spot? Not one earlier along than Ethairis that hadn't run into an existential crisis yet? Not one that was finding a way to cope with it? Instead it's just everything sucks everywhere? You'd think she'd find SOME worlds in a good spot along Ethairis' level or even less developed. It's like her report was generated by an AI seeded with a bunch of cautionary tales.

I believe I have the answer to that;

It's speculated by Urianger that if the world she was visiting didn't have a problem already, she might have accidentally caused one because of her nature and the sorrow her sisters felt over what they found, making a feedback loop. Good job Hermes

[Cleretic]

O.o when I go back there it's still playing Close in the Distance .... even after opening a dungeon... if i've confused anyone I mean the final zone area

Ultima Thule

Oh, I thought that was Footfalls. Yeah, it only plays that after completing the MSQ.

[vormela]

I’ve read through the thread and wonder if some of us have been playing the same game this whole time.

I started playing the game in around April or May and have felt this way about the entire lore forum. I thought it was just me not having the decade-long experience and familiarity. Or I am crazy, which is usually the correct answer.

In other places online, there are specific groups that tend to have more to talk about than "this zone was very slow, retcon, aether blade, etc." A lot of it is fanfic community and people who write.

Like, if you thought Labyrinthos was slow then maybe you weren't paying attention to the quests.

The quest where we have to find 8 distraught high-security-clearance scientists to comfort with loporrits, which are basically Venat's comfort toys for people in senior living facilities... I know the medium limits that quest a lot, but I felt like they were making a statement about what it means to live. People need companionship and someone to say, "Hey, are you okay?" And more often than in instances where they need CPR! Everyday anxieties and insecurities about whether we did everything we could. Existential dread that can come with being a scientist in a field faced with the end of civilization and asking you to fix an impossible problem (climate scientists, anyone who deals in environmental engineering, etc.... basically anyone in earth sciences, health, biology).

The things that give people the "boost" to make all this possible in FFXIV are magical in some kind of way -- whether it is moogles, flying pigs, dragons, loporrits and their technology...but in life we have to decide for ourselves what that magic spark is. The magic can even make a difference in these everyday situations that don't seem critical (the quest I mentioned was part of an instanced zone and the music that plays is like "I'm on a mission to save the world" music).

With Endwalker specifically, the story had to cover so much ground that they were stuck with uniting the bits thematically. And the themes of this game are very deep, personal, and meaningful themes.

What does it mean to live? What does it take to survive? Why do we need to fight? Is there a reason/answer? The collapse of civilizations. Despair.

I think geeking out about lore of stories naturally tries to avoid these ideas to get down to some kind of answer, and that Endwalker's STORY is saying, "You need to find your own answer within." This naturally feels at odds with the "facts" and how they change over the course of how the story is told (I admit, some of the facts still bother me--I am at the last trial).

However, I think there is a balance we can achieve here between this type of take and the lore details (which is just as, if not more important--don't get me wrong!!). There is no "story" forum. I have checked.

[vormela]

I felt bludgeoned by the theme and I have to wonder how much of that was pushed due to covid.

In the speculation thread I was wondering if the story would change to reflect the pandemic. I thought that they would bring back some of the characters we thought were "dead-dead" to give them a proper sendoff and also give us time with main characters (the monologues and heart-to-hearts).

I wonder if they toned down the "end of the world" storyline. Probably also due to quarterly earnings and the second wind FFXIV has had lately! It felt like from Zone 5 onward that the pandemic and second wind changed things. And I think it may have added to the harsh reality of Zone 3. The characters were all so believable.

[Loggos]

In the speculation thread I was wondering if the story would change to reflect the pandemic. I thought that they would bring back some of the characters we thought were "dead-dead" to give them a proper sendoff and also give us time with main characters (the monologues and heart-to-hearts).

I wonder if they toned down the "end of the world" storyline. Probably also due to quarterly earnings and the second wind FFXIV has had lately! It felt like from Zone 5 onward that the pandemic and second wind changed things. And I think it may have added to the harsh reality of Zone 3. The characters were all so believable.

(I know this has probably nothing to do with the pandemic but

the fact that the inhabitants of the last zone are called Omicron (I know the variant is too new to have affected EW), that one of the mobs is called Delta (yes, I know, there's also alpha, beta and chi) and that one of the enemies literally looks like the stereotypical depiction of the covid virus felt kinda surreal. xD )

[Loggos]

I’ve read through the thread and wonder if some of us have been playing the same game this whole time.

There was no way after 11 years of the game that they were going to have a twist where Hydaelyn is malevolent. That would cheapen a lot of the game and a lot of what we’ve done for a weak payoff. It was apparent things were going to end this way when SE responded in an interview to say that we only had one side of the story.

Regarding that

Not making Hydaelyn evil is one thing the writers completely deserve commendation for. Over the years I've had to deal with so many people who were so convinced that twist was coming that it seemed like they were actually hoping for that most shallow and meaningless of subversions. "The good guy was the bad guy all along". It would have undermined the story so badly if it truly ended up being that simple. Imagine how awful the story would have ended up being if it was really just, the Ascians were right all along, Zodiark is a good guy and Hydaelyn has been deceiving you the whole time. Imagine if that's what we got instead of Shadowbringers.

In the end Hydaelyn is neither good nor evil, which is perfect. How you see her ends up coming down to whether you agree with her reasoning. Endwalker is far from the perfect ending in many respects but on that point at least I'm glad it played out the way it did

I'm also very glad that

Hydaelin didn't turn out to be the evil manipulater after all.

But I think the reason why many players felt that the story could take that turn might have been because Shadowbringers did shift the tone quite a lot.
For the first time we had a story with "more shades of grey", if you will. It also felt a lot darker to me.
Whereas ARR and Stormblood felt kind of colourful, over-idealistic and ultimately more like "clichéed optimistic fantasy" (not saying this is a bad thing - just trying to put it into words) and Heavensward was sad, more serious but not, for the lack of a better word, "bizarre", Shadowbringers - in a good sense - felt a lot darker and gritter, with some storytelling elements almost borrowing from horror genres (e.g., when I saw Tesleen's tranformation I was positively shocked because that kind of depiction felt quite unprecedented in FF14).
In ARR, HW and SB an evil Hydaelin would not have made sense thematically. But within Shadowbringers it suddenly felt like it actually might. And because people assumed they would continue to tell the story as they did in ShB they probably expected the same kind of "shades of grey" and perhaps also the same kind of darkness/grittiness in EW. (I would even argue we did get the latter. The HR Giga inspired Telophoroi towers that made you think a xenomorph is waiting behind the next corner, some of Meteion's "creepy" scenes or people turning into monsters (and stomping their own children) really embodied that spirit.)

[Loggos]

Assume full MSQ spoilers. 2/3

Hydaelyn:

Venat was an incredibly divisive character for me. They made her likeable in Elpis only to ruin it at the end. We essentially made her omniscient and for her to not do anything differently was unthinkable to me especially as none of her choices up to that point had resulted in saving the star. I firmly believe Elpis should have branched into an alternate timeline. Not talking to Emet and Hythlodaeus was nonsensical, especially as a handful of quests earlier she was teaching us how to view memories of the past. I found all of her excuses flawed and had to resign myself to the writer(s) wanting a closed time loop so badly that I would have to suffer through the illogic of it all.

I did not care for the 'montage' scene after the end of Elpis either. It confused too many people because what was depicted didn't match with events as detailed in ShB. The audacity of Venat, giving that sanctimonious speech while acting as judge, jury, and executioner to a civilization she doomed with her secrecy. Her character ended up not being much different than Hermes. I was not moved by her 'suffering' either, which was her choice knowing exactly how it would play out unlike everyone else who suffered from her choices in ignorance.

The problem with this is Venat/Hydaelyn is written unquestionably as a "good" character to the extent of being the loving motherly figure to all. There's no arguing that she was in the wrong because - and this is another of my gripes - all shades of grey were stripped from EW. Your WoL, the Scions, the other non-Ancient NPCs, all view her as benevolent and just. (I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised by this as the Scions have always been zealous regarding her.) The fact that she does have two moments of self-awareness also trick you into believing she's a better person than she is.

Her reasons for sundering also change from Elpis to the Mothercrystal. First it's because she believes the Ancients incapable of the change she deems necessary and then it's because they were too dense in aether to deal with dynamis, something she never told anyone they needed to figure out how to deal with in the first place. Here's an idea: how about you consult with your experts, apprehend and interrogate Hermes, and inform the public to allow them the opportunity to adapt instead of letting the Final Days descend with no one having any idea why or how to adjust. Venat wasn't smarter than anyone else, she simply had access to information they didn't and because of that we'll never know if there could've been an alternate path for them. Knowledge is power and she refused to share it.

I really agree with this analysis. Still, I do love

Venat. I know it's very easy and can be all too convenient to say "it was out of character" when a character you like does something you disagree with.

But in this case I'm really inclined to do so. The lack of logic behind her actions felt too inconsistent with her characterisation considering that people described her as outstandingly intelligent and very proactive. She is not perfect but Hydaelin's plan seemed like the opposite of these defining traits to me...

I was under the impression that all of her bad attempts at excuses and justifications were really just the writers desperately trying to excuse the plot through her mouth.


It seems to me that they really wanted to include the time travel element, maybe amongst others as a way to bring beloved characters like Emet-Selch (and the until then faceless Hythlodaeus) back and give us a glimpse at the Ascians' world that we can experience first hand, that is not just a tale or a flashback.

But at the same time they also knew that they didn't have the room or time in the remaining story anymore to incorporate the time travel in a way that really makes sense.
To account for all the effects that should logically have followed. It's easier to just say "btw everything else stays the same after you leave", so you don't have to spend time on explaining to the player all the things that have changed in the meantime compared to the original time line.

(I am aware that in the end the world has to be sundered either way because otherwise there is no Aldenard that we could return to and no WoL that could do the returning in the first place. But maybe they could have found a reason why the sundering still had to happen that was better than just "nothing will change" and "Only Venat can know because Hermes might pull a stunt if literally any other person than Venat learns about it".
How about telling just the other 13 members of the convocation and face Hermes together? Or at least tell Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus. Emet is a master-planner and Hythlo seems quite smart himself. Maybe the brainpower of three intelligent Ascians would have led to a better plan than only Venat's. Or maybe Hermes learning the truth and sabotaging Venat's and the others' efforts to change the future would be a good reason why the sundering ultimately still happens.
It would still be better than the excuses we were served.)

So in the end, I really agree with others here, I think the alternative branch as we had it in ShB would have made a lot more sense. I just cannot fathom why Venat would act as @Rulakir describes. Now that she knows what's happening she is more or less sentencing them to death because she is withholding knowledge, esp. from Emet and Hythlodaeus, that might have changed things. The story insisting that despite the time travel nothing can change and that the events have to play out like before make little sense to me.

But a loop is a lot easier to write and to justify if you bring up time travel in the second to last zone.

I loved Elpis - it was my favourite part of EW next to the final zone - and I would not want for it to be removed from the story under any circumstances. But I think they used it too late in the story for its revelations to be properly integrated into the rest of it.

[Cleretic]

Personally, my theory about why people thought the story would take that turn actually starts outside of the game rather than inside of it.

JRPGs are branded with that 'team up with your friends and kill God' cliche for a reason; it really does happen A LOT. I assume it's because in a game with a grand setting that nonetheless primarily provides violence as a means of interaction, people started wanting to enact violence against the biggest thing in the setting, which tended to be 'the analog for God'. Then eventually developers started indulging that, and things snowballed.

I don't think, deep down, people actually wanted to fight Hydaelyn because they thought she was evil; I think people expected to fight her, because at this point in the genre that's just the done thing, and were looking for a justification. Then Shadowbringers rolls around with a theme of 'light is not always good and sometimes has to be fought', and a pretty genocidal sadboy to say bad things about her, and bam, suddenly the justification has crystallized: that we'll fight Hydaelyn because she's evil. The fact we'll fight her was never really the part in question, it was just a matter of finding the path they had to backtrack down to explain why.

I know I expected we'd throw down with Hydaelyn, I just never bought into the 'because she's bad' explanation, and landed on something closer to what actually happened, that we'd have to fight her as part of some kind of rueful challenge that we'd ultimately feel sad about.