Endwalker Main Scenario Commentary & Feedback

[Catwho]

Level 83 spoilers

Is there a difference between heating grade ceruleum and airship grade ceruleum? Felt really silly scavenging for those cartridges when I have a stack of 500 ceruleum tanks in my inventory since I run the FC submarines. The airship tanks say they are suitable for the ships, but it would have been an interesting data point if Julius explained that the airship grade stuff emits too many poisonous fumes to be used to heat homes.... or something.

[ICountFrom0]

I've scrolled down, skipped everything, and will only read the post that's a reply to mine in order to try to not spoil myself further, but I HAVE to ask somehing.

Our great auntie franny answered so many questions but....

How was it that the lunar primals didn't temper people to THEM, and instead tempered people to anima? I understand the towers were an extension of anima, so of course they tempered to anima. But the primals summoned were not part of the tower, why didn't they temper to themselves?

[Slatersev]

Because while not part of the Tower directly, they WERE directly summoned by the Towers captives.

[WhiteArchmage]

Revelations from lvl 86 MSQ, this one made me super giddy. SUPER spoilery.

Speaking with Emet-Selch while he's an NPC you can ask about the Convocation. He reveals the duties of each Convocation member and why they were chosen, of which we only had inlings of Emet, Lahabrea, and kind of Halmarut.

Divided into those that are authorities in their field were:

• Mitron: Aquatic life
• Loghrif: Terrestrial life and husbandry
• Halmarut: fungal and plant life
• Emmerololth: Medicine and healing
• Lahabrea: Creation magicks (who has "brought forth phantom beings of the highest complexity")

Then those that "possessed skills that would facilitate the performance of their stipulated duties":

• Altima: Advicate of the Arts (interesting?)
• Igeyorhm: Champion of Enlightenment and Rethoric
• Pashtarot: Preserver of Discipline and Order
• Emet-Selch: Keeper of the Aetherial Realm,
• Fandaniel: Pursuer of Extant Phenomena
• Azem: Traveler of the World and Counselor to the People.

I believe it's the first time we know the entire Convocation's roles. What will it mean besides world-building, I don't know. But I'm very interested and hope it's not merely window-dressing, considering our missing four Ascians.

Edit because Math is hard:

Counting the members I was left with ELEVEN, and realized Emet mysteriously left Nabirales, Deudalaphon, and Elidibus out. So it's not the entire convocation and it's unknown what their offices were. I wonder if that's an oversight (which I doubt), their roles are too "sensitive" to divulge outright, or an intentional "mystery box."

[symbiote129]

Edit because Math is hard:

Counting the members I was left with ELEVEN, and realized Emet mysteriously left Nabirales, Deudalaphon, and Elidibus out. So it's not the entire convocation and it's unknown what their offices were. I wonder if that's an oversight (which I doubt), their roles are too "sensitive" to divulge outright, or an intentional "mystery box."

Well, isn't there a possibility of them being involved with Pandaemonium or the Alliance Raid?

[symbiote129]

Oh goddamn, this Final Days part really is nasty, man. I just can imagine how much more terrible the scenes would be if it this was PG-18.

Edit: I wonder how all these events would affect all of the other places we haven't even visited yet (examples like Meracydia, the New World) in future expansions?

[QT_Melon]

Hmm let me talk about Spoiler point when reaching a certain zone

The loremongers will have a field day with the moon and Elpis especially.

I found that wealth of information fun but it does leave some parts of my head scratching

The scene with Venat is different from what we saw in the dungeon (
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Anamnesis Anyder) regarding the Final Days in some portrayals. Was this due to an alternate reality or what?

[Rosenstrauch]

Feeling a bit better now, so I think I'll continue my thoughts in this post instead.

The stuff that got me down last time:

It was not so much the part where Zodiark was treated as The Enemy by Hydaelyn's Watcher or having to fight him that "hurt me", as I put it. Rather, it was the three punch combo of the following:
- The near tender moments with the shades—the souls who gave their lives to aid Zodiark—softening me up for expected pathos. Like, reflecting on the tragedy of their current situation, or praying for their safe return to the aetherial sea once Zodiark is dealt with.
- The utterly ignoble treatment they and Zodiark received once Fancy Dan and Zenos arrived. Which works for me when it's coming from them, as they're meant to be hated. Not so much when it's coming from our allies, our character, and...
- The immediately ensuing three hour questline in which you get given the runaround by the Lopporits. Begone pathos, enter bathos.

As for my rant about Hydaelyn, my frustrations with her character would all go away if it was revealed I am actually right about her. That her poor decision making, stubbornness, and black & white morality were character flaws rather than the result of the writers being clumsy in their depiction of her deeds vs her words. The only characters who are ever allowed to be critical of her are the Ascians or their pawns, and the former are categorically cast as villains while the latter are gullible fools.

Even our one callout on her, right at the start, is just... like: "Yeah, I lied. Anyways, blah blah vagueness blah blah chosen one blah blah...".

Anyways, that's enough out of me on this subject. Time to see where this story goes.

Post-Zone Four stuff here. Spoilers for the second half of the story, natch.

The return trip to Thavnair was horrifying. Well done!

Seriously, even if the Final Days stuff is limited to this one dungeon—similar to Garlemald's occupation forces being stuck in MSQ during Stormblood and the same for Sin Eaters in Shadowbringers—I am actually sold on this being the nightmarish end of days that nearly snuffed out the old world. And despite Alphinaud suggesting this might be different because the account of how the monsters appeared is different, somehow I doubt that's the case.

I've seen it said that this change in spawning method makes them too similar to Sin Eaters, but to be honest, I think that might be the point. This change might be the connective tissue for all three, maybe even all four, "and then they became monsters" transformations we've seen now. To wit: Voidsent, Sin Eaters, Tempered Thralls, and now the Terminus/"Blasphemies". That when you poison a person's existence with so much of something, they transform nigh irrevocably into terrible beasts.

Not even a soul is left behind when these things are born, to say nothing of dying. Yes, this is what I was getting at before. This is the true reason for Zodiark's sealing: To protect him from death, lest all souls (including those sacrificed to him) be consigned to oblivion. Well-intentioned as it is, There's no such thing as hurting someone for their own good. There's only hurting someone for your own good. I wanted to look up that thought process to see if there was a word to describe it, and found that quote. God, yes, it's exactly what I think of Hydaelyn's actions.

Vrtra declares Zodiark the master of these things. I can't believe I want to slap this nice dragon in the face. He then shirks his duty to his people out of fear that it'll only make things worse. A sensible choice, but I actually want to slap him even harder now.

There is a brief encounter where you are tasked with finding a man, his wife, and their newborn child. You find the man at death's door, shadowed by two of the fiends. This is going exactly the way I expect, isn't it... nah, they pulled their punches just an inch. I am actually a little relieved. There have been so many dying children in this whole segment that an infant merely being orphaned and potentially scarred for life is a small blessing. Poor child. And thank God for Estinien and Vrtra.

When I first saw the trailer wherein the Lady in Light speaks of a flower, my first thought was that it would invariably blacken by the end of our journey. I'm not surprised that it has, but the reason is quite interesting.

Y'shtola declares that Hydaelyn is the one who forestalled the Final Days. The injustice of it all, that the being whose very existence served as the world's protection is condemned as the villain responsible for its destruction, while his jailer is lauded as the hero who saved it from him...

Back to the First. We missed the festival. Goddamn it. At least the writers remembered that Ryne exists, though. And thank God they didn't make me lie to her. Nice to see what I believed confirmed: Elidibus was not killed. Poor Elidibus. And oh boy, TIME TRAVEL. This will be entertaining, at least, but goddamn will it be headache inducing. The funny thing is, even if I were to alter past events, by Shadowbringers logic all this would accomplish is forking the timeline again. Our present would still exist as it is, unmarred by the altered past.

... of course they justify this trip to the past with Alexander logic. We get sent to the past because Elidibus remembers us being there. But we were only there because he sent us there. Goddamn causal loops...

I believe I'll leave this post there. Up next will be zone five, so I might as well make a new post for it that it might be on the latest page.

[Mieck]

Main Scenario Ten Characters!


Day One - Level 80-83

Opening to the Tower of Babil.
The Limsa boat call back was marvellous, shot for shot! I was glad they let the player be critical of Hydaelyn. Even though I was always on her team, I at least understood why others would question her motives. Baldesion Annex was great, and I spent a lot of time taking in all the little details in the Main Hall. Good riff on the FF5 main theme, too!

I actually took a swerve and went to Thavnair first. Hadn't planned to - it was just in the spur of the moment - and a party with Dadcred, Mr HoaryAnger, and Estinien was about the speed I needed. And I'm glad I did, because for all the weight of the looming catastrophe and the long shadow of the towers, I laughed a lot in this section, especially when Urianger presses F to pay respects to Estinien. Nidhana's theory of akasa was interesting, and did fit as missing piece. We had aether covering souls, memories, and physical matter, but making an exception for emotion didn't feel out of place.

I initially explained away Fandaniel recalling Owen's name for all the obvious reasons - we knew Emet had been involved with Allag to a degree, and news of Owen's dicsovery probably circulated amongst the Ascians - but the Amon reveal was really well done. An actual jaw-drop moment, that did immediately make sense and set other thoughts running. It immediately explained Fandaniel's outragous dramatics, and I think it was also a little nod to the fact that, although souls are recycled to a degree, the person is always unique. So, although Fandaniel and Amon were very clever people, the lived experience resulted in two quite different people.

Within 2 lines I had clocked Vrtra was being voiced by the same guy who did Goesetsu, and I really loved the whole interaction with the group, with Estinien, and in particular, that we finally - FINALLY - got confirmation that the Dragon Star was a place separate from Hydaelyn and that the rest of space was relative to the Source only. The Shards may well have versions of the Dragon Star out there in their night skies, but the Midgardsormr we know could never have arrived at them. (Some of this took place after the Tower of Zot, I believe, but I thought I'd lump them together.)

Back in Sharlayan, it was good to start seeing more of the city. I had packed my adoption papers and was ready to serve them on that swine Fourchenault, but the trip to the library was a nice diversion. There was a different feeling to this chapter, but still more hopeful than what was to come, and a few more moments of laughter and character growth. I was really glad Y'shtola got to deliver her line from the trailer to the Forum. I was happy to find Ameliance rather more agreeable than her husband, but I still had those adoption papers ready to go at a moment's notice.

Tower of Zot really set the stakes well - I had resisted watching any of the media tour stuff outside the job analyses, and was glad to go into it more or less blind. The final few moments of levity and calm were nice, too - the meal back in the Baldesion Annex, and then the lesson with Montichaigne (hello Conrad Kemp!) was a great tie back to the 2.0 amnesia. That did put my brain into gear on just how many old threads they seemed to want to tie off.

My heart was so full when we went to Ala Mhigo and saw all those quest NPCs back. I'm so happy I'd got everything levelled - it felt like I could really appreciate that scene to its fullest extent. But from more or less the first moment on Magna Glacies, there was no more laughter. I don't think they've set a mood for a main zone (not counting final zones - sorry, Tempest, you were great, but very short lived!) for a long time. Every piece seemed to work - the factionalism, the culture of mis-information and prideful superiority, a whole lot of chickens coming home to roost. Ishikawa really brought her A-game to Garlemald.

Quintus - I was struck that, in any other part of the MSQ prior to 6.0, this guy would have been a serious obstacle and maybe been a semi-antagonistic force for a good chunk of story. That they managed to fit so much into his character and scenes was incredible.

And then, well...
The quest "In from the Cold" broke me. I'm sure there are different parts of the story that will really get under people's skin, but for me, this was horrific. I have a very clear idea of Mieck - I'm not a role player in the strict sense of the world, but Mieck is me, and I am she. Her choices are my choices. And to have that autonomy stripped away, to be faced with the thought that I might be responsible for hurting the Scions was more than I could bear. Even throughout the journey in the First in 5.0, we (she/me) never panicked to this degree. This was such a terrible violation for us. Even Fray gave us the chance to defend ourselves when they wanted to take the reigns, but there was no choice here. By the time we were back at Camp Broken Glass, I could barely look at the Scions. How could they trust me again? What if I had been too slow?
I really wish the game could show a bit more, but I accept they have all sizes of characters to cater for, but at that moment, Mieck really needed a hug. I tried to go on after that - Y'shtola said time was of the essence! - but I just couldn't. So I logged off in front of the Tower of Babil entrance, and tried to get some sleep.
Huge rollercoaster of emotions on Day One.

Day Two - Level 83-87

Didn't sleep well at all! If SE had that much punch in the first 3 levels, I wasn't sure I was ready for any more!
But duty called, and the Tower of Babil was a great dungeon. Particularly liked arriving on the train with all those members of the Islabard Contingent, and then seeing the final lift in the Throne Room itself. I was a little concerned Anima might not feel like a good fight relegated to a dungeon, but it still hit pretty well, I think. I appreciated that we effectively dealt with Zodiark in the first third, since the strong direction from 5.0 onwards was the Sound - the cause of the Final Days - was a much greater threat, and no sooner is he dead, then the Sound makes their presence known! And, of course, it played into Danny Boy's scheme. Refusing to side eye Zenos as he strides by is exactly what I wanted. The advancement of akasa's place in reality from the Watcher was nice and detailed, and like the earlier stuff, did not heavily impact on aetherology as we understand it, which is a very obvious thing to say, since the two are separate, but this was handled well, in my view.

Loporrits! Hey, better than Moogles at least, and the interactions with Urianger were excellent. I loved the interplay between his secretive nature and willingness to find the good in everything and the Loporrit's concerns that, for all their preparation, there was no way they could ever have been ready.

Then, well, the Final Days really start in earnest - straight into Vanaspati, which was such a dramatic dungeon - and this whole section is such a series of gut-wrenches and terrible events that it would be easy to feel fatigued by it all, but again, I think Ishikawa handled this so well. It is unrelenting, but interlaced with the right hopeful and heroic moments. I remarked to my FC that I spent most of the time saying words that rhymed with "clucking bell" throughout this chapter. Finding out about the fate of the merchant I had met at the start in Thavnair was pretty hard, and then finding out about the Terminus Beasts completely destorying the aether of their victim... I felt G'raha's and Y'shtola's pain and confusion. I'd always loved G'raha's little line in the end of 5.0 - "as aether obeys the cycle" - and I wonder whether that was a little question posed by the team for us to spot?

Which leads me to the First. I was so delighted we got to go back. I was pretty sure it wouldn't feature, and I had resigned myself to it not featuring in MSQ again - or not for a while. But here I was, seeing Lyna, and Ryne! Maybe this is wishful thinking, but did Moren and Beq-Lugg basically meta-confirm EE3?!

I'd cried during a fair chunk of the story up to this point, but Elidibus in the Occular was a full-on ugly cry! To have stood against him for so long, even though I can understand his justification and that of the Convocation, and defeated him, to be able to say sorry regardless was a bit more than my emotional state could take.

Elpis. My first thought was "how will the inevitable dungeon in this zone work? The Scions can't be here, unless I'm about to Azem-summon copies of them, like back in Memoria Misera," but, as ever, the writers seemed to know, and hearing that familiar voice filled in the blank. I was very concerned from the moment Emet makes us able to interact with the zone. Integrity of the time line, and all that! But man, what a zone. It is everything I had wished places like the Sea of Clouds had been (obviously, they serve different purposes in the story, but the design was spot on). The moment I met Meteion I was worried, and this only increased as we learnt more about akasa/dynamis. I took every opportunity to speak with Hythlodaeus and Emet (and Hermes and Meteion, too), but I'm sure there are bits I missed, like the one higher up the thread where Emet gives us most of the roles of the Convocation. Unfortunately, before I could meet the person I was most anxious to see - Venat - my router decided it would be a jolly good idea to reset, and dump be back into a 6700+ queue... which promptly crashed on me once I was down to 12th in the list, 2 hours later... End of Day Two!

Day Three - Level 87-90

Day Three, or Why You Should Never Launch a First Contact Space Program without Planet-wide Approval!
Venat! Venat was Azem before our Azem! Emet thinks I'm a lying toerag! Hermes really just wants to find some purpose in life - some reassurance that he's not alone! So much good stuff in here. One of the questions I'd had in my head before launch was why was Venat certain that only she might suffice as Hydaelyn's heart? I was loosly going with the idea she was related to Elidibus, but that was answered in... a way. I think it was generally handled okay (the Kairos McGuffin, explaining how Hermes could possibly have ended up as Fandaniel after his stunt and the fight in Ktitis Hyperborea, why Zodiark was summoned despite knowing full well Meteion is the problem), but it begs the question how that information got into the loop first time around, and how Venat was so implaccably comitted to Hydaelyn's summoning. I'm still pondering how I feel about this, and whether it matters in the grand scheme of things.

The scenes in Amaurot, and of the Sundering, were powerful. More tears.
But the rollercoaster didn't stop! Final Days wait for no-one. I appreciated all the trailer references immensly, and it is so good to see how the plot gets expressed through game mechanics - Alphinaud healing and calming those at risk of transformation. Another piece of possible theorising I had was that Alphinaud was going to leave the Scions and take up his father's seat on the Forum (I was still picturing the demise of Fourchenault at this stage), but it was nice that Estinien makes a quip about just that! Mine (and Mieck's) position on Zenos was bordering on total indifference. Not in the meta sense of finding him a bad character, but because he was not something we wished to waste our time on. He was more to be pitied at that point, though pity is naturally in incredibly short supply for mass-murderers.

The return to Labyrinthos was a strange feeling. In the Hinterlands, the Peaks, and Khlousia, there has been a clear objective and purpose, but I guess it was the game's way of demonstrating that we're not needed for the busy work any more. To see all of those myriad side quests come home on the docks at Sharlayan was such a good moment, and was a nice two-finger salute to the Forum's way of doing business. Urianger's long-postponed meeting with Moenbryda's parents was so moving.

The Aitiascope did a lot of lose thread tidying. I was slightly worried when Asahi emerged - is this the shark-jumping moment - but as it was basically to just say a final eff you to Amondaniel, that gets a pass.
And then... I think all I will say about the level 89 trial, to save you all from a torrent of screeing, is that Thancred is one of the most accomodating off-tanks I have ever had the pleasure to work with.

Our last tour of Sharlayn was more excellent character moments, and then we're off to Ultima Thule (Latin/Greek for groupings of islands, apparently, which made a great deal of sense once I was there).
I wasn't in the least bit worried for Thancred - I'd been expecting the fake-out deaths for pretty much the entire expansion - and I'd also remembered clearly that we'd just got the Azem crystal upgraded. It was a strange last zone, and probably a little too long. It is probably my only criticism, and maybe the ratchet of tension wasn't there (because of Azem crystal), even before Y'shtola mentions it. But that's not say the final ascent, with Alphinaud and Alisaie, wasn't tense, because the sense of looming dread was everywhere. And Emet there, at the last, to pass the torch to the Sundered world! Our time is done, we lost. Just make sure the Star goes on.
The Dead Ends couldn't quite match the spectecal of Amaurot, but it was still good. And then, it's time for bonkers anime end! Of course Zenos can't get over his rematch-boner, but riding onthe back of Shinryu towards the end of all things was pretty bloody insane. By the time he's there at the end with his scythe, I told him the middle option - "Think what you will" - because, like Ardbert, the times that really matter were the quiet moments, the calm after the storm. I rejected him and his way of life to the end.

Credits! I'm once of these crazies who actually let them play all the way through, and they did pictures of the whole journey, from the Waking Sands to the Final Day. And the personal touch at the end is fantastic. More tears! So, that was it. All creation saved, Scions back to being an underground organisation, and the realm safely under the watch of the Grand Company of Eorzea. At least Emet left a shopping list of places we should see!

tl;dr
A*, Square. Many tissues were sacrificed.

[TheCookieGod]

Just here to rant a little, as it's 5am and I just finished.

End of the MSQ spoilers

There were only two moments I really did not like in this expansion, and they were both the bits with Zenos. The body hopping was gross and awful and it served LITERALLY NO PURPOSE. Nothing came out of that whole scenario. It exists only to be upsetting and violate the WoL. The entire premise is flawed, because if Fandaniel can just teleport the WoL, incapacitate them OFF SCREEN, and swap our soul around, there is zero reason that the WoL should not already be dead. We would never have even managed to defeat Lahabrea if the ascians could do something that casually.

But even if that moment hadn't existed, I never would have fought Zenos if given an actual choice. With everything he has done, he doesn't deserve to get what he wants. I don't like the writers forcibly characterizing the WoL as Goku - always wanting to fight strong opponents. My WoL is not Goku and has zero desire to be Goku. Either let us characterize the WoL as we like, or drop this concept entirely and let the WoL be a character in the story. This middle of the road nonsense needs to stop.

Zenos' presence in the story has been utterly pointless since his death in Stormblood, and the story would be stronger if he had just remained dead. I'm of the mind that the writers probably agree with me, seeing as Zenos did absolutely nothing in Endwalker of note. "Well we brought Zenos back, but it turns out we don't actually need him for the story we decided to tell."

The only thing that Zenos actually did in Endwalker was be the floor for the final boss. You know what else is good at being the floor? The floor.

Literally the only thing of note that Zenos did after his death in Stormblood and before Endwalker was kill Varis. Fandaniel could have just as easily accomplished that same task, and then done the same things with Garlemald using Varis' corpse as a puppet before eventually making it into Anima.

Or, if Zenos had to stick around, have him be the one who gets to pilot Zodiark. Fandaniel escapes, Zenos is out of story, and then we don't have to fight three different versions of Fandaniel in one expansion. Twice was satisfying, three times was a bit silly.

Zenos was a plot device, and not a particularly good one, and it served only to mar an otherwise amazing expansion's story. The end.