Dungeons are becoming style over substance.

[Poisonous]

Creativity and complexity in dungeons is fun, and important...but there's a time and a place. Those sorts of designs are only fun once, maybe twice, before they become frustrating and tiresome on repeat.

FFXIV's dungeons aren't D&D dungeons, they're content that everyone is expected to be able to perform and better players can perform quickly and be rewarded for.

Complexity and creativity belong in non-roulette content, like extreme trials, savage raids, side content like Eureka/Bozja, etc.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Creativity and complexity in dungeons is fun, and important...but there's a time and a place. Those sorts of designs are only fun once, maybe twice, before they become frustrating and tiresome on repeat.

FFXIV's dungeons aren't D&D dungeons, they're content that everyone is expected to be able to perform and better players can perform quickly and be rewarded for.

Complexity and creativity belong in non-roulette content, like extreme trials, savage raids, side content like Eureka/Bozja, etc.

There’s a different between being overly complex or being just the right amount. The main issue here is the stark difference between ShB base game dungeons and then the expert dungeons. The expert dungeons are incredibly streamlined compared to the base game counterparts. Especially gauntlet,matoya,and paglthan. We lost out on expert dungeons because they said they were supposedly putting more effort into the ones we do get, however they’re just streamlined versions that are worse than the sb dungeons lol.

[Allegor]

I can only speak for my self, but I enjoy running dungeons 1000% more WHEN I have something to do, that is not my rotation. If you continue to "cut down" on tedium, why to have dungeons in the first place ? Why not just kill the boss ? Wait, we have that, Raids and Trials.

I totally despise Paglth'an and Matoya's Relict just because how absolutely brain dead they are. Im not a hardcore player, by a long shot, but I know my stuff and the dungeons are so streamlined its not even fun to run them anymore.

Doesn't help that it's pretty much a fact that wall to wall trash pulls are harder than the bosses themselves, so the least they could do is add mini mechanics to them like, say, those little obnoxious sprites in Amaurot that tether to healers reducing their healing, or like the giant tonberries in Wanderers Palace you have to run away from. Just....be more creative about dungeon design in a way that adds flavor without "holding back" the run (like the puzzles in Sunken Temple that nobody ever bothers doing or the infamous slime floor in Totorak)

There’s a different between being overly complex or being just the right amount. The main issue here is the stark difference between ShB base game dungeons and then the expert dungeons. The expert dungeons are incredibly streamlined compared to the base game counterparts. Especially gauntlet,matoya,and paglthan. We lost out on expert dungeons because they said they were supposedly putting more effort into the ones we do get, however they’re just streamlined versions that are worse than the sb dungeons lol.

Still funny that Holminster Switch is literally an open field, yet the actual dungeon is a single, straightforward, and rather narrow hallway path, except for the plaza before the final boss. The only "mechanic" to watch out for are the stupid gremlins giving slow debuffs and the big sin eaters doing an aoe

[Poisonous]

There’s a different between being overly complex or being just the right amount. The main issue here is the stark difference between ShB base game dungeons and then the expert dungeons. The expert dungeons are incredibly streamlined compared to the base game counterparts. Especially gauntlet,matoya,and paglthan. We lost out on expert dungeons because they said they were supposedly putting more effort into the ones we do get, however they’re just streamlined versions that are worse than the sb dungeons lol.

They streamlined versions that are in your opinion worse. I thought they were better. They were exciting parts of the story, full of great details, but streamlined so that players can run them quickly without getting annoyed at daily roulettes.

My experience is noticeably better because I'm not stuck waiting for newbies to run around in the right direction or listen to instructions.

[KizuyaKatogami]

They streamlined versions that are in your opinion worse. I thought they were better. They were exciting parts of the story, full of great details, but streamlined so that players can run them quickly without getting annoyed at daily roulettes.

My experience is noticeably better because I'm not stuck waiting for newbies to run around in the right direction or listen to instructions.

That wasnt a problem in SB dungeons either though, they just actually hit harder and mob packs didnt totally melt in a few seconds. I mean objectively, it is less content. Bottom line. We're getting less content AND said content is being streamlined.

Doesn't help that it's pretty much a fact that wall to wall trash pulls are harder than the bosses themselves, so the least they could do is add mini mechanics to them like, say, those little obnoxious sprites in Amaurot that tether to healers reducing their healing, or like the giant tonberries in Wanderers Palace you have to run away from. Just....be more creative about dungeon design in a way that adds flavor without "holding back" the run (like the puzzles in Sunken Temple that nobody ever bothers doing or the infamous slime floor in Totorak)



Still funny that Holminster Switch is literally an open field, yet the actual dungeon is a single, straightforward, and rather narrow hallway path, except for the plaza before the final boss. The only "mechanic" to watch out for are the stupid gremlins giving slow debuffs and the big sin eaters doing an aoe

It's true that Holminster also suffers from the straight forwardness of other dungeons,however the mob packs at least hit hard and dont melt in a few seconds. Thats more than can be said for the expert dungeons.

[Poisonous]

I mean objectively, it is less content. Bottom line.

Is that really objectively true? We're getting a ton more content via Bozja etc.

[Floortank]

Shadowbringers dungeons are way better than Stormblood dungeons. You're gated repeatedly in Stormblood or have these long walks between mobs where nothing really happens. Gun emplacements in Doma that you can just walk directly through rather than going around, in the service of a 3, 6, or 9 mob pull that makes the entire dungeon about 2 minutes longer than it should be. None of the bloat is exciting or fun.

Meanwhile over in Shadowbringers you can pull all 36 monsters on the way to boss 1 in Mt. Gulg, and there's "large" and "extra large" pull in every single dungeon, that a tank and healer can choose to do or not do depending on their gear/comfort level. Sometimes there's more than one of these. The ability to custom size pulls beyond "do I pick up 3 or do I pick up 6 or do I pick up 9" makes the SHB dungeons objectively better than the SB dungeons, coming from a tank who has done them all hundreds and hundreds of times.

[ReynTime]

Less quantity and less quality.
Dungeons are so awful now I'd rather get more content in the overworld. But a team that doesn't understand the appeal of optional mildly challenging dungeons or content not made for "carrying" probably doesn't get the appeal of challenging overworld content either.

[Velnora]

Shadowbringers dungeons are way better than Stormblood dungeons. You're gated repeatedly in Stormblood or have these long walks between mobs where nothing really happens. Gun emplacements in Doma that you can just walk directly through rather than going around, in the service of a 3, 6, or 9 mob pull that makes the entire dungeon about 2 minutes longer than it should be. None of the bloat is exciting or fun.

Meanwhile over in Shadowbringers you can pull all 36 monsters on the way to boss 1 in Mt. Gulg, and there's "large" and "extra large" pull in every single dungeon, that a tank and healer can choose to do or not do depending on their gear/comfort level. Sometimes there's more than one of these. The ability to custom size pulls beyond "do I pick up 3 or do I pick up 6 or do I pick up 9" makes the SHB dungeons objectively better than the SB dungeons, coming from a tank who has done them all hundreds and hundreds of times.

It's interesting how your metric for dungeon quality, is how quickly I can speed down the hallway and round up all mobs to aoe.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Is that really objectively true? We're getting a ton more content via Bozja etc.

We got Eureka in SB which was 4 zones as opposed to 2 without having to get rid of expert dungeons or deep dungeon.