Summoner is a Final Fantasy 14 summoner (not a warlock wow clone)

[MercuryD]

wondering about deathflare come EW it gets upgrade to Ahk morn after we get bahamuth at 70.

Deathflare is still deathflare, akh morn is still akh morn. We'll get 1 deathflare and 2 akh morns every Bahamut.

[MagiusNecros]

Given the changes to DWT you can Deathflare and Akh Morn in conjunction with each other leading to bigger burst instead of having a delay. But you can also choose to delay as well. Lots of nuance and control.

[aveyond-dreams]

I am not of the opinion that those who routinely ignore widespread sentiments from the playerbase have the cause nor credibility to demand honesty, given their express wishes are to:

If talking about how the new SMN works and is structured ruins your fun, excitement and arguments, it's not my problem. I'd say that's actually the point.

It comes as no surprise that those who say such things are unreceptive to feedback from people outside their circles. If objective reality leaned in their favor, this rework would not have happened and would not have received such acclaim from just about everyone under the sun aside from a handful of forum posters and...I think 1 or 2(?) people on reddit whose arguments were also picked apart and laid bare before their threads were deleted in their entirety.

The confidence with which they made their arguments comes across as out of touch if not downright unwelcoming, and I find myself and others largely unconvinced of the validity of their points. Thus, if the facts do not align with this alternate perception of how the class plays and is received by people, combined with such attitudes and tones underlying their clear wish to bring people's mood down, and yet somehow feeling justified for having tolerated the failed state of the job up till now, it is apparent that no further good can come from following along with their way anymore.

If for some reason people on tumblr are having an opinion of just how bad a class is designed maybe just maybe something has gone seriously wrong. Nevertheless, I'm looking forward to the next 10 years of FFXIV's new Summoner.

[Kolsykol]

If for some reason people on tumblr are having an opinion of just how bad a class is designed maybe just maybe something has gone seriously wrong.

You mean the very specific people on Tumblr you hunted down who agree with you?
People see what they want to see and confirmation bias is a thing.
And just because you can find people saying something doesn't mean much, it's like people who start their threads with '' as a woman '' or something similar and then go on to speak as an authority of women and about what they think is/ isn't offensive.
Then you get people using them to reinforce what they already believe and use them as '' evidence ''
The truth is that they only speak for themselves and their opinion is not indicative of anything other than just that.
Even if you could find groups of women saying something it still doesn't really mean much, you could just as easily find another group who says the opposite.

I think it's better to just listen to individual arguments that are actually backed up by something else than '' imo ''.
'' People say '' means nothing.
You need a bit more than that tbh.

I can find groups of people who circlejerk about how awful positionals are and what a plague they are to the game, or how overcomplicated the rotations are.
I don't think that means that therefore it needs to change or that it means it's what most people think or want.

[aveyond-dreams]

I think it's better to just listen to individual arguments that are actually backed up by something else than '' imo ''.
'' People say '' means nothing.
You need a bit more than that tbh.

The problem is the individual arguments presented by the fans of old SMN have been picked apart time and time again. They all boil down to "imo."As seen on the first page of this thread where I went through some of their highlights and opinions I found particularly baffling.

Failing to listen to "what people say" is how you end up with a Blizzard-level situation where devs routinely ignore feedback until the absolute last minute in attempt to win back the trust that was already betrayed. I find myself quite happy in this game where the devs listen to what the general playerbase is saying even if it takes them a while or if they choose to work in total silence.

In any case it was a common sentiment that FFXIV's old Summoner failed on a mechanical and thematic level. Positionals used to really suck too if I remember correctly, where if you failed to do them the combo would break. Should the devs have ignored the general playerbase then as well?

Ah but wait-that would have taken away their beloved "complexity" that were really just horrendous mechanics in the eyes of everyone else at the time.

[rewd]

I am not of the opinion that those who routinely ignore widespread sentiments from the playerbase have the cause nor credibility to demand honesty, given their express wishes are to:



It comes as no surprise that those who say such things are unreceptive to feedback from people outside their circles. If objective reality leaned in their favor, this rework would not have happened and would not have received such acclaim from just about everyone under the sun aside from a handful of forum posters and...I think 1 or 2(?) people on reddit whose arguments were also picked apart and laid bare before their threads were deleted in their entirety.

The confidence with which they made their arguments comes across as out of touch if not downright unwelcoming, and I find myself and others largely unconvinced of the validity of their points. Thus, if the facts do not align with this alternate perception of how the class plays and is received by people, combined with such attitudes and tones underlying their clear wish to bring people's mood down, and yet somehow feeling justified for having tolerated the failed state of the job up till now, it is apparent that no further good can come from following along with their way anymore.

If for some reason people on tumblr are having an opinion of just how bad a class is designed maybe just maybe something has gone seriously wrong. Nevertheless, I'm looking forward to the next 10 years of FFXIV's new Summoner.

Stop embarassing yourself and trying to reach new lows. That comment from more than one month ago was a reply to

We all get it YOU and a few others hate the changes. How about stop trying to ruin others' fun or excitement? So instead of trying to bring ppl down to your level just leave them along and allow them to be excited. Guess what the changes is happening and there is nothing you and other doomsayers can do to stop it. The dev team had to and have made the decision and this is the smn we going to have for the next two years. If you want to criticize it fine but how about offering some structural criticism and offer suggestions to make smn better instead of just whining you just hit the same button over and over, and the spell effects are ugly. Also, I still say how about yall hold your judgments and wait to actually play the job.

If other opinions ruin your excitement (in this case it is a very shallow excitement, then), don't spend time in a forum but go find an echo chamber that best suits your opinion.

Stop trying to weaponize other people and their opinions - even though this is the only thing you do - and develop a real argument for once. You are still conveniently ignoring Roda's point about SMN somehow being the tunnel carpal job with one of the lowest AMP in the game. Don't think this is surprising to anyone., though.

[aveyond-dreams]

I will not speak as to what is or is not embarrassing but the only time I have witnessed this level of unreasonable complaining is when people had meltdowns over male Viera's height.

There is only less than a week left of Affliction Warlock Summoner's time in game, so all I can do is recommend you enjoy the time you have left with it. Cherish and treasure all your fond memories of Bio, Bio II, Bio III, Miasma, Miasma III, Bane, chicken nugget Titan, hot chili pepper Ifrit, collard greens Garuda (I know how fond some were of Contagion!), and reflect on how lucky you were in that you were able to experience such a "unique!" version of Summoner never before seen in the entire FF series (and is unlikely to be seen again).

[rewd]

I will not speak as to what is or is not embarrassing but the only time I have witnessed this level of unreasonable complaining is when people had meltdowns over male Viera's height.

There is only less than a week left of Affliction Warlock Summoner's time in game, so all I can do is recommend you enjoy the time you have left with it. Cherish and treasure all your fond memories of Bio, Bio II, Bio III, Miasma, Miasma III, Bane, chicken nugget Titan, hot chili pepper Ifrit, collard greens Garuda (I know how fond some were of Contagion!), and reflect on how lucky you were in that you were able to experience such a "unique!" version of Summoner never before seen in the entire FF series (and is unlikely to be seen again).

Still not addressing what Rona said. Clownery knows no end. Well done!

[Roda]

I am not of the opinion that those who routinely ignore widespread sentiments from the playerbase have the cause nor credibility to demand honesty, given their express wishes are to:

BOLD of you to make this statement when you have been consistently ignoring any and all feedback, conversation, and hard, objective, data that runs counter to your conveniently constructed reality unless it's for the purpose of being dismissive to anyone who isn't posting with the sole purpose of validating you.


LETS GO DOWN THE LIST SHALL WE??

On the point of ignoring things:

Despite whatever fixes they implemented after 5.0's initial version of the class it is still widely regarded as *the carpal tunnel job.* And yes, dumbing it down is literally the point. ... grappling with poorly designed controls.

Right now, the speed of smn, is ONE OF THE SLOWEST JOBS IN THE GAME.




These are the casts per minute.

Notice how smn is in the bottom 3 for dps (and just for fun I threw AST in there as well.) :>

(The numbers are collected from 100 percentiles of each job in e12s (not oracle))

If you want to have a respectable argument and debate on smn vs nu smn.
Show us the math.

Respond to that.

On the point of "us vs them"

It comes as no surprise that those who say such things are unreceptive to feedback from people outside their circles. If objective reality leaned in their favor, this rework would not have happened and would not have received such acclaim from just about everyone under the sun aside from a handful of forum posters and...I think 1 or 2(?) people on reddit whose arguments were also picked apart and laid bare before their threads were deleted in their entirety.

The confidence with which they made their arguments comes across as out of touch if not downright unwelcoming, and I find myself and others largely unconvinced of the validity of their points. Thus, if the facts do not align with this alternate perception of how the class plays and is received by people, combined with such attitudes and tones underlying their clear wish to bring people's mood down, and yet somehow feeling justified for having tolerated the failed state of the job up till now, it is apparent that no further good can come from following along with their way anymore.

Your "circles"

One search meant to only find the validating quotes from 12 whole people on twitter

Two posts from tumblr. (could be the same person)

Mentioning Youtube, Twitter, Facebook, and Discord with no data (Read: numbers, spreadsheets, graphs, reports, DATA)

How you speak about anyone who is not you.

beyond their echo chamber

Yeah, at this point there's nothing to gain from engaging with the same people who think the sky is falling when it comes to summoner. ...

If for whatever reason someone is so attached to dot mage, WoW is releasing patch 9.15 in the near future so you can go fulfill your Warlock fantasy over there...

So goodbye, all of us real summoners are ready and willing to take your places. And we're not sorry for "taking away your job!" ...

Making Summoner into a pure Summoner only angered people who were more married to the warlock aspects of the class than being an actual Summoner while the other 99% of the internet is celebrating. The arguments they've given in this and other threads make me chuckle...
And we will gladly come in droves to replace any lost warlocks come 6.0.

Just throwing out magic numbers. (and you said you didn't like acn... ;P)

... what is known as the "carpal tunnel job" in the wider community outside of more insular circles.

... the few remaining fans of old Summoner.

...certain circles...

Dismissive, spiteful, assumptions with no evidence.

I've left them as quotes so anyone who wants can go click on them to see the full context. I mostly just tried to cut out the stuff that wasn't relevant to dismissal or name-calling.

This approach to the discussion is what people have problems with with your "arguments".
You base your stance's worth on an unproven popularity. You make up numbers and leave no consideration for nuance. And when you've convinced yourself that (almost) everyone is on your side, you make a special point to punctuate your opinions with statements meant to ostracize those who don't share your opinion.


You are allowed to hold the opinion that you like nu smn. You're allowed to not like current smn. But if you're going to make objective claims, show us the math. And if you're going to make subjective claims, speak for yourself.
Try, just try to have compassion with others, even if you think they're wrong or misguided. If an argument isn't working, don't get frustrated, change your approach.


Now I'm going to have to take a break, 'cause rereading this thread was depressing.

[aveyond-dreams]

What numbers do I need to show when anyone who spends time on any social media site inevitably comes across memes of carpal tunnel summoner or any of the other classic stigmas attached to the job? It is as obvious as looking out a window.

In any case you are free to interpret my words however you wish. That being said I am indeed largely unsympathetic regarding the defense of mechanics that feel bad and do not work, topping that off with a lack of visual payoff that every other summoner in the FF series has. I am not interested in appeals to emotion from niche crowds when everyone else looking in on the situation can see it all for what it is.

Given how strongly certain other...interesting design choices were defended by small sectors of the playerbase in the past it is only inevitable that vocal minorities will raises their voices in one last hurrah as the sun sets on a version of a job that the players and devs agreed did not work and could not go forward. If nothing else examining how different everyone's perceived realities are proved highly entertaining and it will be sad to see the conversation fade away come Friday.