Summoner is a Final Fantasy 14 summoner (not a warlock wow clone)

[Roda]

I like how every argument about new summoner is about how the pets work and look. Nobody actually talks about how it feels to play the job, how much dmg output it will have and how much will it fit into actual playstyle in a video game.

I know that many gamers in FFXIV play for the looks but I heard many people complaining about Dark Knight having the issue of looking cool, filling the role of a Dark Knight, but being the worst out of the Tanks... I don't want this to happen to summoner...

I want a job that feels good to play and not just looks good to play. Also, I don't get people who say "summoner has no summons now" then waduheck is Bahamut and Phoenix? I am so confused. To me it actually feels good that you cannot just randomly summon this powerful beeings randomly, but you gotta work for it. With new summoner it will feel like we are Mary Sue's like usually WoL is in the game.

I wonder how new summoner will look like in lower level content. Will we not be able to use all summons there?

I mean plenty of people have shown concerns for the potential dull feeling of the new rotation.
Some people feel like bahamut and phoenix are more turrets than actual pets now since they don't react to you at all outside of targeting and two button presses.

And I wouldn't call "waiting for a 60 second cooldon" "working for a summon" :T (That's like my biggest issue with current and nusmn. We don't work to summon our big summons, we wait for them, everything else around them is what involves the setup. And nu smn is the same, but with even less setup, and for some reason the big summons are the things that build resource?????)

words words words

Please, I beg of you... Understand smn.

Research more than twitter opinions from strangers who we don't know the experience of...
(And ALSO FROM 5.0 THE SUMMONER THAT DOESN'T EXIST ANYMORE)

MAYBE launch 5.0 summoner when you had to weave the egi assaults, but they fixed that up right quick.

*points to that*

Right now, the speed of smn, is ONE OF THE SLOWEST JOBS IN THE GAME.




These are the casts per minute.

Notice how smn is in the bottom 3 for dps (and just for fun I threw AST in there as well.) :>

(The numbers are collected from 100 percentiles of each job in e12s (not oracle))


Your sample sizes are flawed.
Your data gathering is transparently designed to validate your own personal misinformed opinions on a class you tried at 5.0, and never touched again despite the changes.
And unfortunately, you're not going to convince anyone with such flimsy material. 'Cause anyone who is interested in getting better at a job knows how to research and find usable data.

If you want to have a respectable argument and debate on smn vs nu smn.
Show us the math.

[VentVanitas]

damn, they really hit you with the out of context twitter search results. how are you gonna recover from that sick zinger?

[aveyond-dreams]

Choosing to ignore feedback from the general community seems to be quite a trend amongst the few remaining fans of old Summoner.

No amount of feedback from Youtube, Twitter, Facebook, or even Discord communities is enough to wake certain circles up from the fact that when the average person looked at Summoner, they went "what the heck is this" and then go off to play something else. No feedback except their own appears valid to them despite reality pointing objectively in the opposite direction.

damn, they really hit you with the out of context twitter search results. how are you gonna recover from that sick zinger?

They made the false claim that Summoner wasn't being called a carpal tunnel job and I proved them wrong. That isn't out of context, that's disagreeing with reality staring them in the face and making the conscious choice to not acknowledge it.

If none of these channels are valid ways to gather feedback, then there is no way to prove their opinions are the dominant ones either. SMN was my first 80 back in Shadowbringers and if I could go back I would have played any other class. I understand the job well enough to know that removing Egi Assault weaving was nowhere near enough to solve its other mechanical issues and general bad-feeling gameplay.

[Kolsykol]

"No one called it a carpal tunnel job"





You were saying?

Despite whatever fixes they implemented after 5.0's initial version of the class it is still widely regarded as *the carpal tunnel job.* And yes, dumbing it down is literally the point. There was nowhere left for the job to go with how convoluted it was. This is not new information to the playerbase outside raiders who I guess do not interact with the community at large for whatever reason. Complexity should come from fight design and the level of content you choose to tackle. Not from grappling with poorly designed controls.

You can find people who say anything.
That's how clickbait '' news '' often work they'll go and find some rando on Twitter who said something and then go '' people say/ think... ''.
I don't think that when people say '' no one called it that '' is that LITERALLY no one did.

Personally this is the first time I've ever heard of it.

[Roda]

words

More numbers less argumentum ad populum.

While the casual opinion does give workable feedback, it is not one to base the core of the class on.
If casuals cannot find fun where the more dedicated core can, its not a failure of end-point class design, it's a failure of leveling-as-tutorial design.

Smns skill acquisition progression is all kinds of messed up, and it can give the false impression to newbies who don't like to piece together a class by reading their tooltips that the job may be convoluted / difficult.

Smn at 80 IS a very smooth job (pet jank and devotion timers excluded) with a very straight forward flow. It's just masked by the game dumping priorities on you out of order 1-79.

[Kolsykol]

While the casual opinion does give workable feedback, it is not one to base the core of the class on.

Dude, story of MNK '' feedback '' in a nutshell.
If you read MNK feedback you get so many people who are all like '' I don't/ barely play MNK.... Buuuuut, lemme go ahead and rant about how impossible positionals are and how they need to be erased. ''.
The feedback from people who actually play MNK and people who don't or have just barely touched it is like night and day.

[aveyond-dreams]

While the casual opinion does give workable feedback, it is not one to base the core of the class on.

Why should "casual" players be locked out of an entire job that even the devs agreed had reached the point where it could not go forward? Even dedicated SMN mains agree that the 6.0 version feels better than 5.X but their opinions do not matter because they make youtube videos.

For those who for whatever reason are surprised by Summoner's horrible reputation in the wider social community, there really are no words. Taking feedback from only hardcore fans who say yes to bad mechanics and design is how we ended up with a Summoner that felt like and was widely recognized as analgous to WoW's affliction warlock.

That road was followed to the bitter end and look where that led. At some point you have to change course to keep from colliding with the iceberg. In any case those who are still strongly attached to this...arcane poison wizard had an extra 2 weeks to enjoy their "unique" take on Summoner. I hope they enjoyed it thoroughly, because this sort of design is unlikely to see the light of day again. If they do indeed add a dot caster in 7.0, it has got to better than what SMN ended up as.

[Roda]

Why should "casual" players be locked out of an entire job .

I'm not going to respond to the entirety of this because its entirely based on you putting words in my mouth, and your misinformed opinions of current smn.

I am not saying "casuals cannot play smn, hardcore class only" im saying SE needs to do a better job thinking about skill acquisition and using the leveling process as a tutorial though gameplay. (Which they are notoriously bad at) The game should provide more tools to lift up the casuals and to help them get more mechanically savvy rather than just relying on mentors to fill the gap and dumbing down classes where they cant.

I had similar opinions on the job leveling up, I just changed them after I sat down at 80 to read my tooltips and figured out just what the hell the job was expecting of me. (And after they changed the egi assaults to spells instead of abilities.)

And I'm not saying that smn doesn't have fundamental, core problems with its design, just that dots and pet management aren't it. Nu smn fixes two core problems (leveling progression, and particle effects) and one minor problem (devotion timing) but still leaves a lot of the existing core problems on top of introducing new ones.
And yes I am being vague about those core problems so you will want to discover what they are! :P

[rewd]

We are ignoring feedbacks that are objectively wrong, dishonest and deceptive.

Come back with feedbacks that are worth something and then we will talk. It's very simple.

[aveyond-dreams]

There is only a limited number of ways to interpret that statement and once again shows how disconnected some are from the experience that most people have had with this job.