FF14 is not made for hardcore players.

[Shin96]

There may be a place or room for every player, but all those places and rooms won't occur in a single game. No game can be that all-encompassing.

Like it or not, MMOs are a casual playground. The development and operating costs are too high not to do so. Same for games made by any for-profit company. They're going to focus on casual players because that's where profits are found.

What the "best of the best" should be looking for are the passion projects created by small indie developers. Because the goal isn't profit, those developers can focus on creating very challenging content.

I think the developers have done a good job to encompass both player mindsets. I haven't felt underwhelmed whatsoever, Delubrum Reginae was a breath of fresh air.

That's debattable. FFXIV offers Savage content. Clearly the developers enjoy creating more complex content.

Except small indie developers don't create games on the same level as SE. I've played a few, most of them aren't anywhere on the same level of quality.

[Jojoya]

That's debattable. FFXIV offers Savage content. Clearly the developers enjoy creating more complex content.

Savage might be more challenging than most of the other content in the game but it is still casual content.

You don't have to no-life raiding to get through all 4 bosses before the next 4 are released. You just need a few hours a week along with a solid grasp of your job and ability to recognize/react to fight mechanics.

The best players will clear the content faster, of course, but they're not the only ones capable of clearing it while it's current.

[Setesh45]

Savage might be more challenging than most of the other content in the game but it is still casual content.

You don't have to no-life raiding to get through all 4 bosses before the next 4 are released. You just need a few hours a week along with a solid grasp of your job and ability to recognize/react to fight mechanics.

The best players will clear the content faster, of course, but they're not the only ones capable of clearing it while it's current.

I have played plenty of mmo's, most of the big ones and I don't remember a single one that would fit your description in the last 10 years or longer.

[Avidria]

Savage might be more challenging than most of the other content in the game but it is still casual content.

You don't have to no-life raiding to get through all 4 bosses before the next 4 are released. You just need a few hours a week along with a solid grasp of your job and ability to recognize/react to fight mechanics.

So genuine question here, but is that how you'd define hardcore content? Needing to "no life" to clear one tier before the next?

Does a game like that even exist? I mean I won't be surprised if the answer is yes but like...

Idk I just feel like the whole casual vs hardcore debate is kinda silly when there are so many, apparently wildly different, opinions on what "hardcore" and "casual" actually mean. @OP does anyone even actually believe this is a hardcore game? Is literally anyone unironically expecting "Savage" level performance from random pugs outside of Savage content (and genuinely believing that's a reasonable expectation)? I mean I'm certain there are some out there who do, but I sure hope it's not a huge number of people.

Expecting people to put in any level of effort at all to go beyond the absolute bare minimum in multiplayer content =/= being elitist.

[Jojoya]

So genuine question here, but is that how you'd define hardcore content? Needing to "no life" to clear one tier before the next?

Does a game like that even exist? I mean I won't be surprised if the answer is yes but like...

Idk I just feel like the whole casual vs hardcore debate is kinda silly when there are so many, apparently wildly different, opinions on what "hardcore" and "casual" actually mean. @OP does anyone even actually believe this is a hardcore game? Is literally anyone unironically expecting "Savage" level performance from random pugs outside of Savage content (and genuinely believing that's a reasonable expectation)? I mean I'm certain there are some out there who do, but I sure hope it's not a huge number of people.

Expecting people to put in any level of effort at all to go beyond the absolute bare minimum in multiplayer content =/= being elitist.

I bolded an important part of what you said - these discussions are pretty silly when most games are casual entertainment played for leisure and relaxation. They're played to have fun. You don't have to be the best at something to have fun.

Player communities can't even agree about what is "casual" and what is "hardcore". Sometimes I wonder if the words they're looking for are "amateur" and "professional".

I agree it's not unreasonable to expect people to put in a minimum of effort in multiplayer content. The problem is part of the community has unreasonable expectations for what should be considered minimum of effort. They expect others to be 90th percentile quality in content that only requires 20th percentile effort to clear. They expect others to speed run the content so they can get to grinding out the next bit that much faster.

It is unreasonable to expect random players you encounter to meet those standards in content that does not demand that type and level of performance.

The test of whether or not someone is performing to a reasonable standard is whether the content can be cleared with all members performing at the same level. How do we know it's unreasonable for someone to AFK through Praetorium? Because if everyone was AFK, the content would not be cleared. How do we know it's unreasonable to only auto-attack through Castrum Abania? Because if everyone was auto-attacking, the content would not be cleared.

Tank isn't chain pulling wall to wall? That's fine. You don't have to pull wall to wall to clear the content.

Healer doesn't want to be green DPS? That's fine. As long as the healer is keeping the rest of the group alive, their DPS isn't needed to clear the content.

If someone wants the members of their party to all meet a certain standard, then they should be be pre-forming the party before they queue (like one would do for Savage where those things do start to matter). If you're going to use Duty Finder's random matchmaking, expect a random result. Expecting anything else is unreasonable.

No Savage isn't casual whatsoever. It takes time to gear up and learn the mechanics appropriately. It's not a trip to the bathroom.

Any good crafter can make the gear you need for Savage in about an hour.

Yes, it will take time to learn mechanics but that still doesn't make it hardcore.

Never said someone can clear Savage by going to the bathroom.

You sound like you have an investment in wanting to believe Savage is more than it really is - a more challenging form of casual content.

Games are for casuals. There, I said it. Games are for people who don't have anything better to do with their time.

As for FFXIV.. it offers multiple challenges and battle content isn't necessarily restricted to casual content. The Ishgard Restoration proved dedication is rewarded. In fact, I managed to score there too, albeit not far.

I've got the Pteranodon. I grinded it out casually over 18 months. That too was casual content even if more challenging compared to standard crafting.

The only reason more crafters don't have it is because it was an annoying long grind for an uninspired reward (yay, I can ride Aswang that I kill for my weekly B hunt bill?) so they didn't bother wasting their time.

The Expert grind is actually a good example of why reliance on completion rates is not a true indicator of difficulty and skill. A lot of people skip content they're perfectly capable of doing because they just don't find the content or the reward interesting enough to go to the effort.

[Nethereal]

Games are for casuals. There, I said it. Games are for people who don't have anything better to do with their time.

Yeah not gunna lie that's not a good argument.
Games are hobbies and hobbies are done because they're something you enjoy using your time on over other things, not the other way around.
Plenty of people have "better" stuff they could be doing while they're doing their hobby, doesn't make it casual by definition.
In fact even the most casual of hobbies can become competitive in certain environments.

We could go even further down this rabbit hole by saying that if you make money off of your hobby its now become a job.
If you make money off of knitting sweaters because you've practiced for years and are better than most of your competition does it stay casual or have you just become so good regardless of the amount of effort you put in it can no longer be considered casual.

IMO hobbies can be both "Casual" and "Hardcore" they're not exclusive. What matters is the environment and the approach that's being taken when engaging in the hobby.

[Shin96]

Savage might be more challenging than most of the other content in the game but it is still casual content.

You don't have to no-life raiding to get through all 4 bosses before the next 4 are released. You just need a few hours a week along with a solid grasp of your job and ability to recognize/react to fight mechanics.

The best players will clear the content faster, of course, but they're not the only ones capable of clearing it while it's current.

No Savage isn't casual whatsoever. It takes time to gear up and learn the mechanics appropriately. It's not a trip to the bathroom.

The reason "casuals" suck is because they're throwing hissy fits when anyone is better than them. Much to their irony, it takes effort to get there and that's why they suck.

Get real. Not everyone is a braindead idiot that wants shit to be handed on a silver platter to them. I very much respect and appreciate when a game treats me like an adult with sophisticated interests.

As for FFXIV.. it offers multiple challenges and battle content isn't necessarily restricted to casual content. The Ishgard Restoration proved dedication is rewarded. In fact, I managed to score there too, albeit not far.