Dungeons are becoming style over substance.

[Miles064]

Raider io is no different than ilvl , plus 4 man content is easy to form , raider io NEVER goes down even if u fail a dungeon there is no -100 points , it can only go up...so with time and patience u can get your score is Rio a perfect system? far from it

the issue in WoW M+ isnt the raider io is the "spec-ism" , is just A tank B/C healers X/Y/Z dps , if u arent those GL getting an invite ....


FFXIV 4 man needs some love , and CHALLENGING OPTIONAL CONTENT..........is gasp OPTIONAL......i dont see any ffxiv player disliking ULTIMATES...so why the hate for 4 man challenging content?

Honestly most would give any class a shot even if veng dh was the meta for tank cause tanks were rare lol. I'd say that was on blizz though. Unlike FF, WoW tanks and healers are pretty different from each other which means if content has a ton of something one is weaker at that class is going to feel it more and more. Only fools would turn down a good tank even if off meta though and outside of doing like +20s or something crazy you can def make it work.

100% support some non face roll 4 mans though. Savage dungeons of all the current max lvl expac dungeons + some ff inspired affixes would be pretty fun I feel. Maybe change how the keystones work or drop them completely though. It shouldn't even take a ton of work right? Mythic + is a modifier on dungeons that already exist so it would be number tweaking and some balance tuning. Add it in one of the after launch patches as an extra way to earn tomestones and such.

[Calysto]

didn't read the whole thread ; just a random idea :
open map dungeon, something like 60~ ennemies roaming freely and a boss pop every ~20 kils

Edit : unlike Eureka/Bozja i was thinking open fights for the boss too.
ex: have the first boss pop amid your pull. maybe make it call nearby enemies to join(and/or eat them). now you may have 2 boss to fights ; or things like that.

[PaluMatzu]

There's a sliding scale between boring because story, or boring because gameplay. EVERYTHING boils down to these two options. The PRIMARY reason why most poeple enjoy FFXIV over WoW (in my not-so-humble opinion) is because FFXIV actually KNOWS how to tell stories properly, in a way that doesnt feel flat, watered down, or half assed. I tried WoW's equivalent of MSQ, and it didn't feel engaging AT ALL.

[PaluMatzu]

didn't read the whole thread ; just a random idea :
open map dungeon, something like 60~ ennemies roaming freely and a boss pop every ~20 kils

This has been done before, and IS being done: Eureka and Bozja.

[Shurrikhan]

There's a sliding scale between boring because story, or boring because gameplay. EVERYTHING boils down to these two options.

I guess we missed our quota of false ultimatums on the last page?

[Velnora]

There's a sliding scale between boring because story, or boring because gameplay. EVERYTHING boils down to these two options. The PRIMARY reason why most poeple enjoy FFXIV over WoW (in my not-so-humble opinion) is because FFXIV actually KNOWS how to tell stories properly, in a way that doesnt feel flat, watered down, or half assed. I tried WoW's equivalent of MSQ, and it didn't feel engaging AT ALL.

And if FFXIV didn't have it's story to lean on, it would be a very hollow theme park mmo.

[Michieltjuhh]

I've experienced dungeons in a plethora of MMORPGs now and I can safely say that whenever people claim dungeons were "harder and more interesting" in the past, they're talking pure nostalgia. This happens in literally every single MMORPG that exists for a longer period of time. I've played WoW for 17 years, and dungeons were never hard, but I do look back fondly on playing them in the original vanilla and TBC because I was bad and thus found challenge in that which wasn't challenging. In comes classic and it proved that they weren't actually hard whatsoever.

Same goes for FF14. I've done every dungeon in the game scaled down throughout playing and I can safely say I see nothing in the older dungeon design that would've ever made them complex. Unique, sure, but often in an annoying way past the first time, such as having to click excessive amounts of objects to proceed. Matoya's Relict is getting on my nerves as well. They also had branching paths (99% of the time leading into dead ends with side story pages on the ground or a treasure chest), but that's wasted effort that only a handful of players would willingly go to.

I see a lot of people wanting difficult dungeons, but no timers to avoid the "toxicity WoW has". Here's the issue: especially in FF14, with how streamlined mobility and healing/tanking is, dungeons are practically impossible to make challenging without one. The timer doesn't have to be on the dungeon itself, of course; it can just be an enrage timer on a boss akin to Savage raiding, however that would still trivialize the rest of the dungeon as the only complex aspect is that one boss. If you can kill a boss by pressing a button every 20 seconds and spending the rest of the time dodging mechanics, then making them challenging is almost impossible because you can invest your full attention on executing mechanics. The whole point of a timer is to ensure you're still playing your role correctly while doing the mechanics. The combination of the two is the challenging part, since both in absence of one another are a joke to execute in FF14.

[Michieltjuhh]

There's a sliding scale between boring because story, or boring because gameplay. EVERYTHING boils down to these two options. The PRIMARY reason why most poeple enjoy FFXIV over WoW (in my not-so-humble opinion) is because FFXIV actually KNOWS how to tell stories properly, in a way that doesnt feel flat, watered down, or half assed. I tried WoW's equivalent of MSQ, and it didn't feel engaging AT ALL.

Above post was too long with this included so here goes. Slightly derailing the topic here, but then again the quoted post already did anyway. WoW's story throughout expansions has been fine. The problem is that WoW has murdered the new player experience to ensure a quick path to the endgame to the point that you can't follow the story at all. FF14, on the other end of the extreme, forces the entire story of 8+ years of development down a new player's throat. This means you at least experience the entire story, however that's assuming you last that long. Many a friend of mine have quit before even finishing ARR because the gameplay of at least pre-60 classes is extremely boring and the by now incredibly long forced MSQ of "move from A to B and back to A, now kill 3 irrelevant mobs, now move to B again and CUTSCENE!" while being entirely single player is not what they signed up for.

[Nethereal]

I've never understood the opposition to the bolded, coming from some quarters. It's something I wish they'd make more use of. Anyway, well put.

I think it's part of Yoshida's plan to keep everything all inclusive. Ultimate, savage, and extreme are all okay because they're 8 person content and you can largely rely/get help/carried to some degree on each of them.
Not only that but they're very far away in figurative distance in their placement, dungeons can't be compared to extremes at all, savage can barely be compared to extremes, and ultimates are their own ballpark.
Making difficult 4 man content would either be between dungeons and extremes, at or above extremes, or maybe even savage level.
This difficulty setting puts it extremely close once again figuratively to dungeons.
People usually aren't jealous of the person 50 states over that they hear about once a year, they're jealous of the person who lives right next to them who they have to see & hear about daily.
I think Yoshida wants to avoid this perceived slight the community could possibly suffer.

I've experienced dungeons in a plethora of MMORPGs now and I can safely say that whenever people claim dungeons were "harder and more interesting" in the past, they're talking pure nostalgia.

Gatekeeping, generalizing, and talking for everyone while completely ignoring the fact Yoshida has made statements talking about how people have noticed dungeons are easier and more streamlined and it is intentional.

This happens in literally every single MMORPG that exists for a longer period of time.

Except it doesn't. Don't conflate the issue with your bias.
Dungeons can and do get more boring especially when the it's the developers intention or they don't care to explore or experiment anymore because they know the formula to make the most people happy.

Same goes for FF14. I've done every dungeon in the game scaled down throughout playing and I can safely say I see nothing in the older dungeon design that would've ever made them complex.

Doing old content at minimum Ilevel 3 expansions post is not the same at all as doing it when it was relevant content. So many things have changed since.
Doing ARR dungeons on Sage for instance or any of the new classes since that dungeon was released is not going to provide you any relevant information on what it was like to do them back then, it's a completely different experience outside the song and dance.

They also had branching paths (99% of the time leading into dead ends with side story pages on the ground or a treasure chest), but that's wasted effort that only a handful of players would willingly go to.

It's called immersion.

I see a lot of people wanting difficult dungeons, but no timers to avoid the "toxicity WoW has".

And the truth comes out, scared of the big bad toxic boogey man.

[Velnora]

I think it's part of Yoshida's plan to keep everything all inclusive. Ultimate, savage, and extreme are all okay because they're 8 person content and you can largely rely/get help/carried to some degree on each of them.
Not only that but they're very far away in figurative distance in their placement, dungeons can't be compared to extremes at all, savage can barely be compared to extremes, and ultimates are their own ballpark.
Making difficult 4 man content would either be between dungeons and extremes, at or above extremes, or maybe even savage level.
This difficulty setting puts it extremely close once again figuratively to dungeons.
People usually aren't jealous of the person 50 states over that they hear about once a year, they're jealous of the person who lives right next to them who they have to see & hear about daily.
I think Yoshida wants to avoid this perceived slight the community could possibly suffer.






Gatekeeping, generalizing, and talking for everyone while completely ignoring the fact Yoshida has made statements talking about how people have noticed dungeons are easier and more streamlined and it is intentional.



Except it doesn't. Don't conflate the issue with your bias.
Dungeons can and do get more boring especially when the it's the developers intention or they don't care to explore or experiment anymore because they know the formula to make the most people happy.



Doing old content at minimum Ilevel 3 expansions post is not the same at all as doing it when it was relevant content. So many things have changed since.
Doing ARR dungeons on Sage for instance or any of the new classes since that dungeon was released is not going to provide you any relevant information on what it was like to do them back then, it's a completely different experience outside the song and dance.



It's called immersion.



And the truth comes out, scared of the big bad toxic boogey man.

It's statements like that, that make me question which community is the toxic one.