Summoner is a Final Fantasy 14 summoner (not a warlock wow clone)

[rewd]

You guys can be happy with it as you want, i don´t mind. It doesn´t change the fact, that it´s gameplay-wise NOTHING and all the hype will die withing 1 week for sure. Going to wait for all the new topics about "How lame SMN became." and all the new issues with it.

People will say "Wait for 7.0! The rework was just a start, the job will get more complex" even though we saw 6.0 MCH and it is still brain-dead.

7.0 SMN will have Shiva, Levi and Ramuh as post-Phoenix primals, but they will mirror Ifrit, Garuda and Titan. Levi will be water Garuda with a placeable DoT and a fast 1111 spam; Shiva will be ice Ifrit with two casts and a melee combo; Ramuh will be lightning Titan with the 121212 spam.

It will add literally nothing to the job but the flashy boom boom gang will be pleased to see Ice Ruin III, Lightning Ruin III and Water Ruin III and SE can convince themselves they nailed it by adding nothing, just like with MCH.

[MercuryD]

Truthfully, this fixes some issues from 2.X-5.X SMN while introducing others. Neither job is perfect but no job ever will be.

The way I see it, we'll have 3 groups:
1) People that like ShB and before SMN gameplay but doesn't like EW so they won't touch it
2) People who didn't find ShB and before SMN fun but will enjoy EW SMN
3) Those of us that played SMN through all of its ups and downs from before ShB/at ShB who will stick to the job.

None of these are bad, just a difference in perception or opinion.

[Videra]

Honestly, I'm withholding judgment until I actually get to play it on December 3rd, but being a summoner hobbyist since HW my hope is that the class plays more intuitively in Endwalker and that the C U R S E D O P T I M I Z A T I O N is a thing of the past.

[Taranok]

People will say "Wait for 7.0! The rework was just a start, the job will get more complex" even though we saw 6.0 MCH and it is still brain-dead.

7.0 SMN will have Shiva, Levi and Ramuh as post-Phoenix primals, but they will mirror Ifrit, Garuda and Titan. Levi will be water Garuda with a placeable DoT and a fast 1111 spam; Shiva will be ice Ifrit with two casts and a melee combo; Ramuh will be lightning Titan with the 121212 spam.

It will add literally nothing to the job but the flashy boom boom gang will be pleased to see Ice Ruin III, Lightning Ruin III and Water Ruin III and SE can convince themselves they nailed it by adding nothing, just like with MCH.

The game is made better for having both simple and complicated jobs. SMN even right now isn't very complex, outside of wrangling the stupid pet and finger gymnastics because of bloated bars. They're also maintaining most of the core of the classes (new) identity, primarily a slightly shifting rotation depending on phase, combined with summons.

I mostly am annoyed with MCH because its base rotation will see the heat gauge overcapped naturally, wildfire is just a redundant skill at this point and doesn't feel good, and honestly they could remove wildfire and make Barrel Stabilizer both start wildfire and hypercharge without giving any gauge, reducing 3 button presses to 1, and it would actually just fix the majority of MCH's current problems aside from ping issues and hypercharge anxiety bars, same problem both BLM (AF/UI timers) and DRK (Blood Weapon) have going into EW.

To put this into perspective, I don't hate that SAM's a complicated class, I hate how overbearing skills can be on it as well as its skill bloat. It doesn't need 35 buttons to preserve the complicated parts of the rotation. Hagakure (SB) and Tsubame-Gaeshi are the only 2 buttons that are truly dumb about the rotation, and fixing it helps smooth out the class without disrupting its overall complexity. While Tsubame isn't being fixed, it is being made easier. So there's that.

My point is mostly that I don't care if SMN is a simpler caster. As long as it feels good to play. We want every class to have a low skill floor, as low as possible glares at BLM in Savage but having variable skill ceilings is important. Which is why I don't really take a comment of players complaining about Bard as: "A lot of effort for no real reward" as holding water. A lot of effort is fine if you enjoy the style of effort that class has to offer. Playing it becomes its own reward. You just want to smooth it out as much as possible. Also, simple doesn't mean brain dead. MCH isn't brain dead, it just doesn't make super important decisions for every button press. The difference is that each micro-decision adds up over the course of the entire fight to express as a wide variance in performance compared to other MCH, so you do have to care.

[ShaolinMike]

Interesting how so many people feel like complexity is directly proportional to fun factor when it comes to SMN.

[Myon88]

That's not that surprising if you think about it. The job used to be complex, so naturally it attracted a lot of people who derive fun from complex gameplay. Smn also got a lot of mch-refugees who fled the job after their Stormblood casualization. Fast forward to today, and you have a disproportionate amount of people like that represented in its demographics.

It's like if you asked why so many BLM players think bigger explosions are correlated to more fun, the job design selects for people like that.

[Rolder50]

That's not that surprising if you think about it. The job used to be complex, so naturally it attracted a lot of people who derive fun from complex gameplay. Smn also got a lot of mch-refugees who fled the job after their Stormblood casualization. Fast forward to today, and you have a disproportionate amount of people like that represented in its demographics.

It's like if you asked why so many BLM players think bigger explosions are correlated to more fun, the job design selects for people like that.

Definitely true. The question is, where do we go now?

[Karshan]

How about all the ppl in this topic, who don´t even do more than casual content, but calling the new SMN "a real summoner", when it´s nothing but some visuals without any deep gameplay? (Oh wait, that´s everything serious casuals looking at, visuals while spamming 1 button!)

- AFK carbuncle
- 1 button press for some primal animations called "burst window"
- less buttons in your rotation overall

It´s not better than its previous version and even farer away from being a real summoner who interact with its summons.

You guys can be happy with it as you want, i don´t mind. All i see is e.g. Squall as Gunbreaker (NOT SMN) using a crystal to use a GF action in FF8. Fact is, that it´s gameplay-wise NOTHING and all the hype will die within 1 week for sure. Going to wait for all the new topics about "How lame SMN became." and all the new issues with it.

Real summoner as in "real final fantasy summoner". I agree with everything else you say but the name, NO. Names carry expectations, in final fantasy a summoner is NOT what we had since ARR. They tried to come back to it (thankfully) with Demis, but we carried the load of the ARR design of dots and wanky pets.

It may not be a good warcraft, or aion or teso summoner, but it is a good FF summoner take. It comes at a cost here, of some complexity. Will it be enough to deter huge amounts of people ? we'll see, we know from here that at least a non negligible portion won't like it.

I can play current summoner quite extensively, yet I'm liking the idea of the rework. Because it finally goes in the right direction thematically, so I don't want to get in the path of that. I'm a bit afraid that criticizing too much the mechanical aspect would be confused as a critic of the thematic as well.

If devs make changes, i would like to add complexity to the remake, not revert to the current one.

As I already said elsewhere, I'm just sad that finally having our final fantasy summoner fantasy will cost people who don't really care about it the mechanical aspect of current summoner that they appreciated.

[SweetPete]

Yoshi said they made lots more changes since the media tour so I’m hoping they added more summons to the summoner kit. I am a summoner main and just summoning the same 3 primals after each Demi summon does sorta suck. So I’m hoping they’ll at least give us Shiva, Ramuh and Leviathan for Demi-Phoenix.

Please don’t make us wait 2 years just for that.

[Rolder50]

Yoshi said they made lots more changes since the media tour so I’m hoping they added more summons to the summoner kit. I am a summoner main and just summoning the same 3 primals after each Demi summon does sorta suck. So I’m hoping they’ll at least give us Shiva, Ramuh and Leviathan for Demi-Phoenix.

Please don’t make us wait 2 years just for that.

There's no chance they would make dramatic changes like that in the scant time between media tour and launch. At best, it would be minor stuff like potency adjustments.