SE are leaving BLM to rot by giving SMN and RDM even more utility

[ForteNightshade]

Well that's not exactly true. There are hardcore groups that ask BLMs to play SMN/RDM for prog before switching to BLM, but on the flip side those same groups want RDMs to switch to BLM or SMN afterwards. Or they just outright look for a SMN/BLM combo and leave RDM out entirely. But, again, those are only specific groups looking for specific things. Most groups outside that specific niche are more than happy to welcome a BLM into the fold especially when paired with a raise-caster. I dunno, I just see it as silly for BLM mains to pretend to be victims when it is actually RDM who has been the red-headed stepchild of casters for some time now (especially with embolden being what it is pre-6.0).

"When paired" being the operative words here. Most statics still follow the double melee paradigm. A single glance at the recruitment discord will show you just how many groups ask BLM players to play RDM/SMN for prog. It isn't simply the hardcore having such a prerequisite. Furthermore, RDM hasn't been the red-headed stepchild for a while. It dwarfs Black Mage static players while frequently pulling ahead of Summoner as the most popular caster. It even made it into the 5.5 speed meta.

BLMs aren't playing the victim. Raise is objectively a massive advantage during prog, regardless of your static's skill level or aspiration. Hence why this discussion comes up, especially in light of the dev team wanting to remove Resurrection. Doing so basically guarantees RDM a slot in a good number of groups when no other role is afforded such luxury. Now I don't necessarily think BLM should be given a Raise. I'd rather they kill off Verraise and Resurrection.

[ShadowNyx3]

Picking a second melee over a really good Black Mage is just the playerbase being stuck in the days of physical damage debuffs. There's lots of mechanical advantage to having three ranged dps.

That being said, if you're a world prog or week 1 raider, you should be willing to play multiple jobs to fit your team and benefit prog.

If you're not playing at that high level though, then stop worrying about it and tell your group to die less and play what you want.

Easy.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Picking a second melee over a really good Black Mage is just the playerbase being stuck in the days of physical damage debuffs. There's lots of mechanical advantage to having three ranged dps.

That being said, if you're a world prog or week 1 raider, you should be willing to play multiple jobs to fit your team and benefit prog.

If you're not playing at that high level though, then stop worrying about it and tell your group to die less and play what you want.

Easy.

Been very happy running three ranged, especially in presence of a Black Mage. It allows for more options for a group by letting the ranged players move into a second melee position as it is useful to them:

- BLM gets to choose position thats more comfy to cast from
- RDM and DNC get to use melee range skills with less hassle

Also having access to two Addle or Ranged CD is REALLY sweet.

[SnowVix]

Been very happy running three ranged, especially in presence of a Black Mage. It allows for more options for a group by letting the ranged players move into a second melee position as it is useful to them:

- BLM gets to choose position thats more comfy to cast from
- RDM and DNC get to use melee range skills with less hassle

Also having access to two Addle or Ranged CD is REALLY sweet.

double phys ranged DPS is absolutely doable, it's what I ended up clearing the tier in. and strictly selfishly, it was great as a monk because it gave me more room around the boss's back, plus I automatically got my favored corner.

[Taranok]

"When paired" being the operative words here. Most statics still follow the double melee paradigm. A single glance at the recruitment discord will show you just how many groups ask BLM players to play RDM/SMN for prog. It isn't simply the hardcore having such a prerequisite. Furthermore, RDM hasn't been the red-headed stepchild for a while. It dwarfs Black Mage static players while frequently pulling ahead of Summoner as the most popular caster. It even made it into the 5.5 speed meta.

BLMs aren't playing the victim. Raise is objectively a massive advantage during prog, regardless of your static's skill level or aspiration. Hence why this discussion comes up, especially in light of the dev team wanting to remove Resurrection. Doing so basically guarantees RDM a slot in a good number of groups when no other role is afforded such luxury. Now I don't necessarily think BLM should be given a Raise. I'd rather they kill off Verraise and Resurrection.

Actually, my Eden's Promise static requested (but did not require) I played a raise-capable caster for progging. I had the option to BLM but I chose SMN because, despite being objectively worse on SMN than BLM, the raises easily shaved a month off prog time for my static's glacial prog process (3 hours/week).

My TEA static, where I am also BLM, is also requesting I swap. I'm doing fine in the group, we're able to consistently get past Living Liquid now with practice, but the request is coming down as: "We would like res utility pushing forward." Res utility is a serious problem to the balance of the game. It's not in question. BLM has basically been forgotten. The devs keep putting ever taller hats on what is effectively an ancient rotation dating back to ARR that has been retrofitted to work for HW and then barely changed since, and BLM mains are going: "Wow, this is fine, we need more of this!" while refusing to accept the reality that the class isn't keeping up with the direction the game is, and has been, going in.

Honestly, due to Magick Barrier alone, RDM is probably going to be the de facto caster of EW. The class has it all. A 2m tactician mixed with mantra, the ability to raise up to 6 people in a row (lucid dreaming, starting at max MP, an amount of time between 5th and 6th res as Lucid ticks), and with SMN having about 85% freedom of movement, it will probably beat SMN in both personal DPS and raid utility and people squabble over 'lore' in a game where RDMs literally cannot double as a healer because if they could, it would be mandatory in all prog forever.

[Bhearil]

Considering how BLM has never been one of the neglected jobs (actually quite the opposite compared to the other 2 casters that had quite a lot of messy periods) id say the job is perfectly fine. To put the extreme of saying "RDM can 6 man revive on row" under perfect circunstances and rendered useless later due no not having more MP until lucid dream comes back again is like saying that BLM can "potentially" direct crit their spells during the next 30 seconds and pull far ahead from anyone else.

In any case at most what we have now is that if X job have good or bad aditions to their kit. And even if their kit is good, if they are neutered numbers wise they will end neglected by the community due to SE failing to measure the job properly.

The exact oppposite is what happened with Monk on early ShB: Their kit was garbage, but their overbuffed their potency so much to compensate that it was a no brainer to bring one despite crappy gameplay due to how much they overperformed, and continued until they brought other dps jobs to similar levels which was when the monk player numbers quickly deflated and players went back to jobs with more functional(and fun) kits

On DPS jobs unlike other jobs like Tanks where you can already see if one is gonna be god or bad (unless they overbuff/nerf a lot compared to what we have now), the final adjustments in values can make or break a job

[Sylvain]

. To put the extreme of saying "RDM can 6 man revive on row" under perfect circunstances and rendered useless later due no not having more MP until lucid dream comes back again is like saying that BLM can "potentially" direct crit their spells during the next 30 seconds and pull far ahead from anyone else.

But no one cares RDM DPS drops down to 0 because they're oom after 6 rez. After 6rez you can probably forget your DPS check anyway so you being oom is definitely not an issue.

What will happen after 6 rez is that your group will be able to practice the next mechanic. That's it. Nothing more.

And that is much more valuable than spilling a few more FireIV while 6 players are dead.

Like, it never happened to you? Both healers died from the same mech, you got a RDM, they're rezzed and you just managed to practice a but further into the fight?

Or 1 healer died and 2 dps... Well you're almost guarantee to not have everyone before the next mech (which are often 8man danse). Sc on the healers, start rezzing one, start rezzing the other, somehow your tank doesnt need any heal and the boss isn't doing any RB... Almost 16s later finally, they're all alive and you're probably oom from spending 7200 mp in 16s ...

But hey, don't worry, your BLM is burning that boss real good. Much better than a RDM doing triple instant rez, lame.

[ThorneDynasty]

Rather than just homogenizing, I'd rather BLM had some other flexibility utility. Maybe a buff for limited recouping of DPS loss from weakness, scaling to the role of the KOd player. No hard boosts to party damage or overtaking the spare rezzer role.

It's possible the playerbase would overvalue more likely clear runs where the odd KO is risking the DPS checks, over the mid-prog utility of extra raises, even though both are crutches. Still, I don't think just slapping a rez on BLM would be better for balance or really fit the job identity even if you try to dress it up as necromancy.

[Bhearil]

But no one cares RDM DPS drops down to 0 because they're oom after 6 rez. After 6rez you can probably forget your DPS check anyway so you being oom is definitely not an issue.

What will happen after 6 rez is that your group will be able to practice the next mechanic. That's it. Nothing more.

And that is much more valuable than spilling a few more FireIV while 6 players are dead.

Like, it never happened to you? Both healers died from the same mech, you got a RDM, they're rezzed and you just managed to practice a but further into the fight?

Or 1 healer died and 2 dps... Well you're almost guarantee to not have everyone before the next mech (which are often 8man danse). Sc on the healers, start rezzing one, start rezzing the other, somehow your tank doesnt need any heal and the boss isn't doing any RB... Almost 16s later finally, they're all alive and you're probably oom from spending 7200 mp in 16s ...

But hey, don't worry, your BLM is burning that boss real good. Much better than a RDM doing triple instant rez, lame.

Having a 6 man wipe on a mechanic is such a catasthrophic mess that is not worth to keep going if so many people are failing that mechanic (unless you mention an Alliance Raid, but they are generally easy to carry and get carried on those anyways, yes even things like Thunder God Cid pre nerf). Theres a difference between having to ressing a few people due to a failed mechanic and continue to try to learn a bit more and another most of the team failing hard on a certain mechanic and wasting time on future mechanics before getting those deaths lower on that mechanic first.

Following your reasoning a BLM is far better than a RDM to get past the enrage timers, the coin can be flipped to the other side you know? You cant value RDM basing on that your team is going blind or just plain suck. Having more than 2-3 deaths per minute spells disaster already outside those specific cases and honestly getting tired of the Rez Mage monicker already.

Some jobs deal damage some others have utility and you are not seeing me complaining here that the RDM mobility depends on having a previous cast done to proc dual cast meanwhile the other 2 casters, yes even BLM despite their turret meme status, can keep casting while moving if theres a phase that requires to keep moving, and before someone starts pointing that is a dps loss, is still better than having almost no dps at all during those moments besides OGCD or being able to do the melee combo which relies in several factors at the same time

In any case considering that if the SMN rework is a success its very likely that they will lose their raise on the next expansion( they did mention that they almost removed it for EW), so the chances of a BLM getting it are virtually null, and thats fine theres enough homogeneization as it is already

[remiff]

Actually, my Eden's Promise static requested (but did not require) I played a raise-capable caster for progging. I had the option to BLM but I chose SMN because, despite being objectively worse on SMN than BLM, the raises easily shaved a month off prog time for my static's glacial prog process (3 hours/week).

My TEA static, where I am also BLM, is also requesting I swap. I'm doing fine in the group, we're able to consistently get past Living Liquid now with practice, but the request is coming down as: "We would like res utility pushing forward." Res utility is a serious problem to the balance of the game. It's not in question. BLM has basically been forgotten. The devs keep putting ever taller hats on what is effectively an ancient rotation dating back to ARR that has been retrofitted to work for HW and then barely changed since, and BLM mains are going: "Wow, this is fine, we need more of this!" while refusing to accept the reality that the class isn't keeping up with the direction the game is, and has been, going in.

Honestly, due to Magick Barrier alone, RDM is probably going to be the de facto caster of EW. The class has it all. A 2m tactician mixed with mantra, the ability to raise up to 6 people in a row (lucid dreaming, starting at max MP, an amount of time between 5th and 6th res as Lucid ticks), and with SMN having about 85% freedom of movement, it will probably beat SMN in both personal DPS and raid utility and people squabble over 'lore' in a game where RDMs literally cannot double as a healer because if they could, it would be mandatory in all prog forever.

this is totally wrong that the red mage has more potential to beat the summoner on the dps because the summoner is mobile, the tax does not apply to the summoner due to the fact that they also have buff the mobility of the red mage in addition to granting him a more consistent burst, a better aoe rotation, and a double mitigation in addition to keeping his ability to chain resurections.

You don't have to look any further with the tip of your nose to be sure that the red mage will never beat the current summoner in dps for the simple reason that he now has the best kit of the 3 casters,
he is therefore already godtier, even if he has a lower dps than the summoner.


People underestimate the mobility of the red mage, with the mana white/black combo buff only granting free mobility spells, gap closer x2 and jump back x2 also granting mobility,

do not forget the passive, a casted spell, the next one is instant.