It's time to kill the argument that DPS abilities keep healers from healing.

[ASkellington]

What about the other skills that were deemed too niche or impractical and were removed?
What about the old AST card system? Was it unreliable in the truest sense of the word? Yes. Was it satisfying to play your cards right (pun very much intended, sorry lol)? You bet. But no. Not enough DPS, so it gets shafted.

Also, I'm not a SCH main so maybe I'm wrong but what happened to Selene? Wasn't she deemed inferior and then removed?

What about Fluid Aura? Yes, a very lacking spell but at least the bind effect was sometimes useful in the overworld (in the rare instances where you actually feel threatened).

I get why stuff gets removed but don't you think the game becomes more and more shallow as a result? I certainly think so. I actually like talent trees, different skill sets and the like. XIV isn't like that and that's alright. But ever since 5.0 the game resembles more a spread sheet to map out damage. And IMHO the community only has themselves to blame.

Heck, 6.0 brings back a modicum of diversity, like Lord and Lady for AST and people immediately moan about it here. A typical careful what you wish scenario. I'd rather have the illusion of choice than no choice. But that's just me.

Hmm. No. I disagree the community is to blame. If you'll notice, plenty of people want old cards back (with changes), Selene back, and Fluid Aura to be less niche.

No one asked for Major Arcana to all be Balance. They asked for more consistency and less rng. SE's answer is the current system.

Also, the reason why Lord/Lady gets a bad rap (at least from me) is that I already have 4 instant cast aoe healing abilities on a 60s recast timer and don't even USE 2 of them in most content because SE has proven that they don't want to increase healing requirements. Why in the seven hells would I want another one? I don't want Lord/Lady to be what they are now, but I don't want Lady's slated effect. I want something else.

[lisaa]

Obviously, only Sebazy can speak for themselves, but I believe what they meant with "healers should be immune from failure" is that their gameplay is more or less intentionally designed to be difficult to fail at.

Healing requirements can't be too high, because that would make healers maybe struggle, and that would make them sad.

DPS can't become necessary in everyday gameplay, because then healers might mess up balancing damage and healing, and that would make them sad.

Managing resources in the form of gauges or self-buffs can't be too complex either, because then healers might get overwhelmed, and that would make them sad.

And so on. It all feels very childproof and that Squeenix, plus the community, seem to think the average healer are morons that can't handle any form of pressure, complexity or depth. Which is well, actually sad. Sorta limits design space.

Yes, exactly, healers should be simple and difficult to fail at. No one else has control over the party like healers do, and when healers fail the party fails. If a tank misses a cd the healers can just heal or shield more. If a dps is struggling the rest of the party can do more dps and carry a bit. If a healer is struggling you can't do anything about it. You just have to wait until they learn it. And that feels bad for the other players and the healers.

[ASkellington]

Yes, exactly, healers should be simple and difficult to fail at. No one else has control over the party like healers do, and when healers fail the party fails. If a tank misses a cd the healers can just heal or shield more. If a dps is struggling the rest of the party can do more dps and carry a bit. If a healer is struggling you can't do anything about it. You just have to wait until they learn it. And that feels bad for the other players and the healers.

No. Not only does this directly contradict what draws healers to be healers, it means an entire role is absolved from any consequences.

Tanks are allowed to screw up.
Dps are allowed to screw up.

But healer? No. We'll make it so you can't screw up, fully negating what you find fun about your role/job while also being unfair to the other two roles as they get to have consequences, but you don't.

[AikenDrum]

other roles aren't really having consequences if healer negates em anyway ^^
but by not enabling healers to fail aswell you can basically replace content with cutscenes where wol with scions defeat various bosses

[Kraniel]

I agree with what you said about the DPS mindset. The gameplay needs to accommodate non DPS abilities otherwise why use them? The SCH speed buff is at least something considering the current design (still a bit meh lol). But then there is the whole DPS loss talk where I, frankly, just bow out of a discussion. I'm not sure if it's true anymore but I remember a party member saying that the SAM back jump is a DPS loss or something (not too sure lol)and I was like "but it feels good to use, so I will continue using it."
Game feel is equally important, if not more, than raw numbers. But that skill is still in the game.

What about the other skills that were deemed too niche or impractical and were removed?
What about the old AST card system? Was it unreliable in the truest sense of the word? Yes. Was it satisfying to play your cards right (pun very much intended, sorry lol)? You bet. But no. Not enough DPS, so it gets shafted.

Also, I'm not a SCH main so maybe I'm wrong but what happened to Selene? Wasn't she deemed inferior and then removed?

What about Fluid Aura? Yes, a very lacking spell but at least the bind effect was sometimes useful in the overworld (in the rare instances where you actually feel threatened).

I get why stuff gets removed but don't you think the game becomes more and more shallow as a result? I certainly think so. I actually like talent trees, different skill sets and the like. XIV isn't like that and that's alright. But ever since 5.0 the game resembles more a spread sheet to map out damage. And IMHO the community only has themselves to blame.

Heck, 6.0 brings back a modicum of diversity, like Lord and Lady for AST and people immediately moan about it here. A typical careful what you wish scenario. I'd rather have the illusion of choice than no choice. But that's just me.

I mostly agree with what you said, but i honestly don't think that the community is to blame for what is happening. In the end, it's just the vision that SE has for their game, based on their analytics and assumptions. For instance, since you brought it up, a big part of the community (including myself) still would like to see the old cards come back (maybe not all of them, but at least have SOME variety).

As you said it very well yourself, the game becomes more shallow because of this, and i for one completely agree with the silliness of always chasing the biggest DPS parser (or whatever it is some people are after). I live for the endgame content, but to me what is the most important is that i'm having fun with the game, that i'm living an adventure with some other players. That's the reason i play FFXIV, not to finish a raid quicker than another party. If i want some proper competition, i'll go play other games that are by nature more competitive.
So with that in mind, i have to say i'm quite bummed out they took away the fun i had with cards in the early SB days. Sure, now i probably do more average DPS, but that's not worth it if you ask me.


That said, as far as the new Lord and Lady are concerned, i think the reason the community is disappointed with them is just because they're a shit idea, and that's it.
Adding an AoE damage spell and a healing spell, to a class that already has tons of them ? I mean come on ! What kind of uninspired BS is that ? Literally ANYONE could come up with it.
If i'm told that it's a 4 years old who designed that, then sure, i'd understand. But i sure as hell expect better from a grown man who's actually paid to think about this.

I actually think the changes to AST for EW are a step in the right direction, but Lord and Lady ? So much more could have been done with them, had SE given it one extra day of thinking.

[Gemina]

Yes, exactly, healers should be simple and difficult to fail at. No one else has control over the party like healers do, and when healers fail the party fails. If a tank misses a cd the healers can just heal or shield more. If a dps is struggling the rest of the party can do more dps and carry a bit. If a healer is struggling you can't do anything about it. You just have to wait until they learn it. And that feels bad for the other players and the healers.

This is not the way to look at the roles of the game. Each of them bring something fundamentally important to the table in order to get clears. You will notice this quickly if the tank goes down and your second on the aggro list, or you if you do not meet a DPS check. These two things are some ways I can think of that will rip the god complex out of any healer. The ability to sustain a group is only one part of the PvE dance.

What I will agree with that everyone will blast me for is that healers should only be given a simple DPS rotation that is extremely difficult to screw up. It is what it is. I've remained steadfast about these thoughts for years now. I've stood by the dev's decision with this approach, and it isn't changing anytime soon. My experience with the difficulty in playing this role in FFXIV differs from what is expressed here. What I can admit to is my scope on healing is limited because I do not do relevant Savage or Ultimate, so I cannot speak about healing requirements for that level of difficulty. However, what I do know is that it would be difficult to call content "Extreme", "Savage", or "Ultimate" if a healer's kit is not needed to sustain DPS uptime.

And that's kind of it, isn't? You'll notice I said "sustain DPS uptime" and not increase it. Healer is a very unselfish role to play. Their healing kits provide sustainability to the entire group, which benefits everyone's DPS uptime by not letting anyone's hit or stay at zero, which ultimately benefits you. While I do think there are some wolves in sheep's clothing out there, who are just DPS players wanting quick queues; I do believe that most healers out there smashing that one button feel that their purpose in the group is next to nothing because their kits have become redundant. It is leaving players feeling this way, where I fault the devs a great deal.

Healers have to constantly deal with the rise and setting of the sun when it comes to their kits. The sun is at its highest when new content is released. Their purpose renewed. Then that sun gradually loses its brightness to the horizon. If there is anything the devs need to fix, it is this. More DPS buttons will not do this, and the healer mains out there know this in their gut.

[Deceptus]

I actually think the changes to AST for EW are a step in the right direction, but Lord and Lady ? So much more could have been done with them, had SE given it one extra day of thinking.

My issues with "giving them an extra day of thinking" is that they'd (the developers) still would have the same mindset the next day and would probably make the same decision.

4 years of a lack of healer role direction has proven this.

IMHO Whoever designs the healing role needs a fundamental change in mindset and attitude toward the role because they clearly have little to no idea of what healers actually want or how the role interplays with the game itself.

Case in point: The Developers keep giving us more and more healing tools without enough damage to warrant actually using them. That is a fundamental design deficiency that needs to be addressed.

Veteran healers don't care if they actually have to heal, but right now we don't.

And we want something interesting to do during the downtime. That is not asking for a lot.

[Kraniel]

My issues with "giving them an extra day of thinking" is that they'd (the developers) still would have the same mindset the next day and would probably make the same decision.

4 years of a lack of healer role direction has proven this.

IMHO Whoever designs the healing role needs a fundamental change in mindset and attitude toward the role because they clearly have little to no idea of what healers actually want or how the role interplays with the game itself.

Case in point: The Developers keep giving us more and more healing tools without enough damage to warrant actually using them. That is a fundamental design deficiency that needs to be addressed.

Veteran healers don't care if they actually have to heal, but right now we don't.

And we want something interesting to do during the downtime. That is not asking for a lot.

I agree with you, but i think the mindset problem you're talking about is just laziness, to be honest.
It's not very difficult to understand how healers traditionally play in MMOs, as i'm sure many people working on FFXIV have played other MMOs themselves, or might be asked to do so in order to study competition.
All the decisions regarding class design are agreed upon by entire teams, and most likely by Yoshida himself. There is no way that all of these smart individuals together are unable to come up with anything better than "LORD IS BOOM, LADY IS HEAL".

No ... I genuinely think they're just winging it.

[Rosa_Frandlia]

I agree with you, but i think the mindset problem you're talking about is just laziness, to be honest.
It's not very difficult to understand how healers traditionally play in MMOs, as i'm sure many people working on FFXIV have played other MMOs themselves, or might be asked to do so in order to study competition.
All the decisions regarding class design are agreed upon by entire teams, and most likely by Yoshida himself. There is no way that all of these smart individuals together are unable to come up with anything better than "LORD IS BOOM, LADY IS HEAL".

No ... I genuinely think they're just winging it.

That's exactly what Lord/Lady were before. What they did was revert their change to minor arcana, not come up with boom and heal. People were asking for the old Lord and Lady back and that is what they got. Well, at least AST got something back as neither WHM or SCH did in asking for things like Bane and Aero III back.

[CrimsonGunner]

That's exactly what Lord/Lady were before. What they did was revert their change to minor arcana, not come up with boom and heal. People were asking for the old Lord and Lady back and that is what they got. Well, at least AST got something back as neither WHM or SCH did in asking for things like Bane and Aero III back.

in fact whm got it worse, he got a useless skill that only worth if he gets hit 5 times during 15s for 180s( lets face it, that is a bad implemented skill),got thin air nerfed killing his mp management advantage.
sch got carbon copy skill from war and expedite which was so lackluster yoshida actually needed a lot to explain how good it is like he needed to sell this idea (which he did not do for the other jobs) and as a side remark it also had mitigation on the skill at the end also whether or not the fairy ai is responsive ,release will let us truly knows.

seriously fire the designers for the healers job and let people who actually play those jobs in other games develop, it clearly current developers and designers of the healers roles are slacking on their jobs.