Should Dark Arts Come Back in 6.0? If so, What Should the Skill Do?

[KyuzoZA]

I think you AAAAALLL trying to be to technical about this.
Rather go back to understanding what a DARK KNIGHT is and what a WARRIOR is.

Dungeon & dragon the father of all RPG classes is a good guidance method.
The same principle applies to a witch and a wizard or sorcerer they all CASTERS and similar in ways.

WARRIOR and DARK KNIGHT are both melee brawlers and they similar the same.
I'm happy with how the class is with a few tweaks it should make it a bit more unique, but i'll leave that to SQ Enix they've been doing this for years I trust their decisions.

[RinaB]

I'm all for new mechanics and gameplay as long as they don't revert drk into the mess it was in SB.

[currentlemon]

I bumped this thread again because of all the DRK discussion/feedback going on in these forums. Yes, I know the Dark Knight Megathread exists, but the purpose of this thread is to talk about Dark Arts and Dark Arts only. If anyone has any suggestions, post away.

Below is my new suggestion for Dark Arts. This can be found on the first page.

Special thanks to Rosenstrauch, Shao and Anahlise for the ideas.

Dark Arts will be earned at Level 42.
Regaining Dark Arts charges depend on the Darkside timer. If 30secs have past while in Darkside, Dark Arts will regain 1 charge (special thanks to Rosenstrauch for this suggestion).
DRK won't be able to use Dark Arts until 30secs have past on the Darkside Timer.
However, this changes at later levels. Similar to Black Mage and it's Polyglot mechanic in Endwalker, DRK will receive a trait at later levels allowing them to use Dark Arts at the start of fights.


Dark Arts will, of course, enhance some skills. Unlike StB, these skill changes are limited so the player won't be overwhelmed.

Upon the activation of Dark Arts, the following skills will change:
Soul Eater becomes the dot skill Scourge
Dark Mind receives a 20% mitigation bonus for Physical Attacks
Carve and Split does 3 hits now. Each hit does the same number of potency.
Shadow Wall mitigation bonus is now 40% with a duration of 20 seconds
(New) Power Slash, which is a returning combo finisher, becomes the old 3.0 Delirium skill, just renamed.

TBN needs to be brought up since it's losing Dark Arts as a trait.

Suggested Change:
- If TBN breaks, DRK will gain the trait Dark Rune
- Dark Rune reduces damage taken by 15% for a duration of 12secs
- Restores the DRK's HP with a Cure Potency of 500.

I've still yet to put more thought on the traits.

[Kreyd]

Dark Arts will be earned at Level 42.
The skill will have two charges. Three at max level
DRK can use it's Dark Arts skill at beginning of every dungeon/raid.
Regaining Dark Arts charges depend on the Darkside timer. If 30secs have past while in Darkside, Dark Arts will regain 1 charge.

How is DRK supposed to use DA at the beginning of dungeons/raids when its charges need active Darkside to charge? Will they also charge outside of battles? Could you explain that?

Dark Mind receives a 20% mitigation bonus for Physical Attacks
Carve and Split does 3 hits now. Each hit does the same number of potency.
Shadow Wall mitigation bonus is now 40% with a duration of 20 seconds

This would bring back 2 problems we had with DA in HW and StB.
1. If DA is usefull for both dmg and sustain abilities it will ultimately only be used for dmg.
2. Giving DA effects to ogcd can cause problems with doubleweaving, especially under the haste window BW had. Admitted we don't have that anymore, but some people (me included) would like to have haste windows back on DRK.

(New) Power Slash, which is a returning combo finisher, becomes the old 3.0 Delirium skill, just renamed.

3.0 Diliriums usage was the Blunt debuff that isn't in the game anymore. What would be Power Slashs new purpose?

TBN needs to be brought up since it's losing Dark Arts as a trait.

Suggested Change:
- If TBN breaks, DRK will gain the trait Dark Rune
- Dark Rune reduces damage taken by 15% for a duration of 12secs
- Restores the DRK's HP with a Cure Potency of 500.

+1 on that. TBN should not consume MP and be damage neutral. Binding dmg and sustain together is an aweful design and will always be.

I would like to have DA back. But not as it was in StB because it was just "Press DA->do more dmg". It should rather be something like "Press DA at the right moments->alter Gameplay/manage ressources->do more dmg."

[Noraiga]

I don't care how they will implement Dark Arts back...
Just give it back ! Give us back DA please and trash out some of the useless button bloat who serve nothing as a DK mechanics.
DK have literally 0 mecha... Like really, job should have at least some sort of mechanics, i know it's all for casual but to find a balance would be better in my opinion.

DK is a dummy, an empty shell.
I don't know who is in charge of combat gameplay on DK MNK but he messed up way too much, the whole "simplify job" have to stop also...

[Shurrikhan]

This would bring back 2 problems we had with DA in HW and StB.
1. If DA is usefull for both dmg and sustain abilities it will ultimately only be used for dmg.

This depends entirely on tuning. If, in the given context, the rDPS gain (via healer GCDs saved) of the defensive usage is greater, then the defensive actually has more offensive value. HW simply didn't give quite enough affected damage to quite outweigh the 140 additional potency.

That said, I also wouldn't mind DA's never directly affecting offensive potency.

2. Giving DA effects to ogcd can cause problems with doubleweaving, especially under the haste window BW had. Admitted we don't have that anymore, but some people (me included) would like to have haste windows back on DRK.

Agreed. And I, too, would like it back.

[Shin96]

I think DA should unpack different actions. Reason I like this concept so much is because it's a way to get rid of staleness and makes you actually feel powerful.

Overall though.. I think Reaper has defeated us. It's going to be sooo hard to give DRK its own identity in terms of gameplay when its biggest enemy is a DPS.

[Ryaduera]

Dark Arts will be earned at Level 42.
The skill will have two charges. Three at max level
DRK can use it's Dark Arts skill at beginning of every dungeon/raid.
Regaining Dark Arts charges depend on the Darkside timer. If 30secs have past while in Darkside, Dark Arts will regain 1 charge (special thanks to Rosenstrauch for this suggestion).

This doesn't fix anything. This is just a long winded way of saying 30 second cooldown. Darkside is still a brainless layer to look like mechanical skill is required, but you still are constantly overcapped on it. It would be far better to make it consume darkside time.

[currentlemon]

How is DRK supposed to use DA at the beginning of dungeons/raids when its charges need active Darkside to charge? Will they also charge outside of battles? Could you explain that?

The more I thought about this, the more I thought about Black Mage. During Enochian, that Job gains 1 Polyglot every 30secs. It's the same with Dark Arts in this situation, but in Endwalker, Black Mage will receive a trait that will allow them to have 1 Polyglot at the start of the fight. I'm thinking DRK and Dark Arts can have the same thing at higher levels. Not sure what level DRK should be though.

3.0 Diliriums usage was the Blunt debuff that isn't in the game anymore. What would be Power Slashs new purpose?

I actually did not know that because I did not play 3.0 DRK. I'm just a casual player that started playing the job at 4.55 and beyond. But Dark Arts looked cool, so I made this thread in hopes of catching SE's attention.

As for what the Dark Arts Enhanced Power Slash does, maybe do a magic vulnerability down debuff. DRK is technically a "Magic" based job, so having a 2 or 3% magic vulnerability down debuff on the enemy would fit the DRK aesthetic in my opinion.

This would bring back 2 problems we had with DA in HW and StB.
1. If DA is usefull for both dmg and sustain abilities it will ultimately only be used for dmg.
2. Giving DA effects to ogcd can cause problems with doubleweaving, especially under the haste window BW had. Admitted we don't have that anymore, but some people (me included) would like to have haste windows back on DRK.

I need to think more about this. I wouldn't mind Dark Arts effecting only defensive skills, but in my eyes, that would be kinda boring? Maybe only effect 1 or 2 offensive skills and that's it. As for Blood Weapon, again I'm not sure. If BW does not receive a haste buff in future patches, then having Dark Arts as an oGCD is fine. But that would change if BW does receive it's haste buff back. So many things to consider.

This doesn't fix anything. This is just a long winded way of saying 30 second cooldown. Darkside is still a brainless layer to look like mechanical skill is required, but you still are constantly overcapped on it. It would be far better to make it consume darkside time.

Perhaps you are right. Again, I never played 3.0 DRK. I just kept listening to the veteran 3.0 and 4.0 DRK players and formed my opinion here. Since a lot of DRK players did not like the Dark Arts spam in 4.0, I suggested that it'd only be an oGCD with charges to prevent spam.

However, having Dark Arts take away Darkside timer is a good idea. A great idea. Although, I do think this idea would fit better if BW got it's haste buff back.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

My thoughts on Dark Arts are, for the most part, still the same. The fundamental purpose of Dark Arts needs to change... It use to be all about a damage gain, and with its return, it needs to not be about damage gain, and serve a new purpose; said new purpose of which I have been to type multiple times in this thread, is that Dark Arts just changes the effects of actions, alters the purpose of actions, or adds a new additional effect to actions, as its old direct damage gain purpose, will always be a problem.
With that said, now I will get into these last few new comments and share my own thoughts about this update to ideas for the return of Dark Arts...

Dark Arts will be earned at Level 42.

Just a thought, but since the new idea is for Dark Arts to be DarkSide reliant, I could see Dark Arts unlock at the same level as DarkSide, but on the other scale, it also makes to not, as Dark Arts could.. sort of?, be seen as a upgrade to DarkSide, so Lv42 seems fine, or.. since Dark Arts is a important skill that changes Dark Knight quite a lot, it could even unlock at Lv50, along with Living Dead, as one of Dark Knights' fancy.. was "capstone" the word?, actions.

Regaining Dark Arts charges depend on the Darkside timer. If 30secs have past while in Darkside, Dark Arts will regain 1 charge (special thanks to Rosenstrauch for this suggestion).

I think that this idea is fine... I like it and I am all for it. It does not change the function of Dark Arts much, any way.. it just adds a CD to it, as Dark Arts would technically still "cost MP to use", in the sense of the MP spent to extend DarkSide duration, which then counts down as Dark Art's CD... But, since the MP is not spent on Dark Arts in a direct manner, this avoids the issue that Dark Arts must not cost MP, because for Dark Knights...MP = offensive potency, but Dark Arts needs to not be a direct offensive action.

The skill will have two charges, Three at max level. / DRK can use it's Dark Arts skill at beginning of every dungeon/raid. / Regaining Dark Arts charges depend on the Darkside timer. / If 30secs have past while in Darkside, Dark Arts will regain 1 charge. / DRK won't be able to use Dark Arts until 30secs have past on the Darkside Timer.
However, this changes at later levels. Similar to Black Mage and it's Polyglot mechanic in Endwalker, DRK will receive a trait at later levels allowing them to use Dark Arts at the start of fights.

How is DRK supposed to use DA at the beginning of dungeons/raids when its charges need active Darkside to charge? Will they also charge outside of battles? Could you explain that?

big BUT... I agree with Kreyd here. I like the idea that Dark Arts ties into DarkSide, but this is not such a good way to implement it... Here is my alternative idea: When the Dark Knight enters a instance activity, they will start with Dark Arts charges already ready, and this will apply from the start, down at Dark Art's unlock level, as to lock this behind a higher level(the Enochian comparison idea), I think is a bad idea. Now for a problem with this, which was obvious to me...

As I said before, Dark Arts must not be a direct offensive gain, and instead, its new purpose should be just to change the effects of actions, alters the purpose of actions, or adds a new additional effect to actions... This means that for Dark Knights, Dark Arts will not be a immediate use, but DarkSide will be a immediate use, so if the Dark Knight starts the activity with all charges ready, there is a potential waste here, as DarkSide would tick away while Dark Arts has all charges ready, so no charge CD for DarkSide to tick away at.

Here is my solution: Dark Arts action(unlocks at Lv42), Dark Arts Practitioner(a Lv45 trait), of which this trait grants a second charge for Dark Arts, and also makes it so that the Dark Knight will always have one charge already ready, when the Dark Knight enters a instance activity, while the second charge will remain not ready. This gives Dark Knight a lenience, to use Dark Arts once before the second charge readies, to avoid potential waste from that DarkSide is immediate, where-as Dark Arts is not.

now, I disagree with you again, CurrentLemon, where you say "three charges at max level", as Lv45 to Lv90 is a lot... I think, rather, that Dark Arts should improve slow but steady, across levels and the expansions. Here is my suggestion: Dark Arts Practitioner II(Lv60? trait), this trait will unlock the third charge for Dark Arts. Dark Arts mastery(Lv70? trait), this trait will make it so that the Dark Knight enters a instance activity will two charges already ready, instead of just one, while the third remains not ready.
the point of this is that as the Dark Knight gains levels and more actions, Dark Arts will effect more actions, so the demand of Dark Arts uses will go up.

As a side-note, all trait levels are non-final and subject to change, since I only wrote it that way to get my point across, as the trait upgrades to Dark Arts may end up with a need to be at earlier levels, and unlock at a level around, or even the same level as, the level at which the Dark Knight unlocks another action that uses Dark Arts.

Alright, before I continue.. I will reiterate how Dark Arts itself ought to function... It can be one of two options. When the Dark Knight uses the Dark Arts action, either:
option one / grants a passive self-buff, Dark Arts, for 15 seconds. Every action that the Dark Knight uses in the next 15 seconds, while Dark Arts is active, will activate their Dark Arts bonus, Dark Artes additional effect, or temporarily change into the alternate form that Dark Arts alters the action into.
option two / grants some number of "stacks" of a Dark Arts passive self-buff, with a 30 second duration, and every action that the Dark Knight uses in the next 30 seconds, while these "stacks" are active, will spend one of those "stacks", to activate the action's Dark Arts bonus, Dark Artes additional effect, or execute the action's temporary altered new form.

Dark Arts will, of course, enhance some skills. Unlike StB, these skill changes are limited so the player won't be overwhelmed.

Upon the activation of Dark Arts, the following skills will change:
Soul Eater becomes the dot skill Scourge
Dark Mind receives a 20% mitigation bonus for Physical Attacks
Carve and Split does 3 hits now. Each hit does the same number of potency.
Shadow Wall mitigation bonus is now 40% with a duration of 20 seconds
(New) Power Slash, which is a returning combo finisher, becomes the old 3.0 Delirium skill, just renamed.

First.. I will say that I think that Dark Arts should effect many Dark Knight actions, not just a few of them, but absolute should not effect certain Dark Knight actions, such as Hard Slash, Syphon Strike, and Unleash, for obvious examples. And now to unpack my thoughts on each of these ideas...

Dark Arts alters SoulEater into Scourge is not a bad Idea, but then the Scourge DoT will need a long duration, since it is locked behind Dark Arts, but would need to have consistent DoT upkeep, so that means that the Scourge DoT needs a Duration of at least 30 seconds.

Dark Arts - Dark Mind is also fine. Dark Arts could either add physical damage mitigation, or even change the magic damage mitigation into physical damage mitigation. Just as a side-note, this Dark Arts effect should also apply to Dark Missionary.

As for Carve and Spit, I love the idea from a personal perspective, as I would love for Carve and Spit to be a real threefold attack, but.. this idea also makes me a little nervous, because that means Carve and Spit will always be inferior to Dark Arts - Carve and Spit, which would lead to a "Dark Arts requirement"... Here is my own idea: Carve and Spit is always a three-hit action. Split its 450 potency and MP restoration across the three hits. While Dark Arts adds the additional effect of that each hit of Carve and Spit will also restore HP, that so Dark Arts - Carve and Spit is a situational choice, rather than a requirement.
I have a different idea, for another action, that has a big CD and buffs the damage of more than just Carve and Spit, as Dark Arts needs to not serve that purpose again...

I am also not certain about the Shadow Wall idea, for the same reason. That was a problem in the past, for damage mitigation to be inferior outside of Dark Arts, and make Dark Arts a requirement, rather than a choice. I do want for Dark Arts to have effects on Dark Knight mitigation actions, but I am not certain that a direct mitigation buff is a good idea...

last, as for the return of Power Slash... I see people mention the "cost DarkSide" / make DarkSide a resource idea often, so here is a idea from me: Power Slash is a second 3 in the 1-2-3 combo, beside SoulEater, while Power Slash hits harder than SoulEater, but does not restore HP like SoulEater, and Power Slash also costs seconds off of the DarkSide duration, so this becomes a choice of sacrifice DarkSide for damage, but do not push that too far, with SoulEater as the safe alternative, along with its individual self-heal effect, so the Dark Knight has a choice of risk and reward damage, or safe damage with a self-heal.

as a side-note, I would also make it a lot more difficult to even upkeep and maintain DarkSide, though. For a example... Edge/Flood of Darkness/Shadow only grants and extends DarkSide by 15 seconds, instead of 30, and Power Slash can cost either 10 or 15 seconds of the DarkSide duration. This will force the Dark Knight to not just abandon SoulEater for Power Slash spam, which is good, and also makes the higher damage of Power Slash more like a relevant miniature burst, that forces the Dark Knight to pay more attention to DarkSide and its now more difficult upkeep and maintance, which I.. think(?) that Dark Knights would like, and to play around with, this new risk and reward game of DarkSide balance...

TBN needs to be brought up since it's losing Dark Arts as a trait.

Suggested Change:
- If TBN breaks, DRK will gain the trait Dark Rune
- Dark Rune reduces damage taken by 15% for a duration of 12secs
- Restores the DRK's HP with a Cure Potency of 500.

I've still yet to put more thought on the traits.

And my opinions about The Blackest Night still remain the same... Its if-broken bonus as a offensive bonus is a liability and bad design. The if-broken bonus should be a defensive, utility, or self-sustain bonus. That said, MP = offensive potency when it comes to Dark knight, so I agree that The Blackest Night should also not cost MP, along side to no longer have a connection to, and no longer be a liability to, the Dark Knight's offensive potential.