The questions I want EW to answer the most: WHY and HOW was the world sundered?

[Veloran]

1. The PC is not literally Azem of Amaurot. They are Azem reborn in the modern age, and their own person - not bound by whatever the last Azem of Amaurot did. "It's strange / improper for the PC to take sides because Azem didn't take sides" doesn't make any sense.

I think people's perception of the situation is very much "this was your character, just very far in the past". It would be one thing if Azem was very different from WoL, but by all accounts they behave all but exactly alike. Therefore I think it's reasonable to look at how Azem stood apart from both factions and question WoL's allegiances to one in the modern day.

Personally, I mostly come from the second, because frankly I don't buy that Amaurot is as perfect as claimed. FFXIV isn't the type of game to do a flat, perfectly innocent society; there has to be some shadows being cast somewhere. At the same time, I'm also aware of the possibility that they might be responsible for the event itself, just by virtue of 'we don't know what did it, so maybe they did it'.

It's quite a leap from "they weren't a completely perfect and infallible society" to "they deserved to be genocided and their souls smeared across fourteen realities". This is really a sticking point with various Final Days theories - There really isn't much that they could reasonably be responsible for that could possibly justify the total extermination of all life on the planet.

Zodiark isn’t a god either but that doesn’t stop the Ascians from constantly referring to him as the “One true god” despite the fact they should know better.

Yes, but they're characters in the story. It's a little different when people viewing from the outside still hold Hydaelyn up as a goddess.

[Cleretic]

It's quite a leap from "they weren't a completely perfect and infallible society" to "they deserved to be genocided and their souls smeared across fourteen realities". This is really a sticking point with various Final Days theories - There really isn't much that they could reasonably be responsible for that could possibly justify the total extermination of all life on the planet.

So, there's actually two things there that are also worth dividing up. But I'm not saying that some reveal will drop their moral stock so low that we'll go 'good riddance to bad rubbish'; more just that we'll learn things to realize we didn't exactly lose perfection.

What I was referring to there was the End of Days, and notably there, we don't really have any notion of life before that point that says their society was anything less than perfect. That doesn't sound right to me, because this isn't a game that introduces perfect fallen societies despite ample chance to, there's always been acknowledged flaws (other stories would've been happy to paint Sharlayan, Allag, Ala Mhigo, Doma, Bozja, or the Crystarium as effectively perfect). I think we'll eventually find out something that to some degree says 'they had it coming', even just in a karmic sense rather than direct cause-and-effect, although it may be more of an Old Testament or Greek myth-style 'entire cities destroyed because of nebulous sins' thing.

What you're talking about is the Sundering. And actually... that's rather different, because with that one we do know they did bad; they were ready and willing to forcibly genocide every single non-Ancient sentient life. That's the kind of thing that suddenly makes your society getting Sodom and Gomorrah'd a cautionary tale, rather than a tragedy. In fact, the one thing we're missing there (which is a major problem of mine with the story so far) isn't the sin; it's the blame. It's barely been said that what Hydaelyn did to Zodiark was partly retribution. In fact, the only person that's really said that was even a thing has been Hythlodaeus, a person who was certainly speaking truth, but also lacks strong enough opinions to blame anyone for anything. We're lacking someone to REALLY call them out on that one just yet, which stops it feeling like direct punishment.

Again, it's all very Old Testament-style harsh justice. But I will point out the developers were taking notes from Christian mythology for Shadowbringers and Endwalker, so that's exactly the material to look to. And the Ascians do largely have Hebrew names, after all.

[Onshinn]

Who wouldn't break things into gazillion pieces when they're tip to the point? Hydaelyn is just that - Your Father pissed of Your Mother. Mother just breaks Hell out of Hell. As kids we're having an awesome time as WoL and wait for the next drama unfolds. Enjoy!

[Theodric]

I've posted this before, in other similar threads though in regards to the themes of the expansion and story I think it's well worth highlighting once again:

I do believe that this should add further clarification on the subject when it comes to the intent of the writers, especially the last paragraph:

Q: With each new expansion new themes are introduced and are focused on. How does the team decide on which themes to focus on with each new expansion?

Naoki Yoshida: The major themes for the expansion would be first conveyed from me as the game’s director to the development team. Although it is somewhat difficult to describe my personal decision-making process it could be summarised as [requiring a sense of] surprise and fun. This contains a dual meaning in that I assess whether as developers ourselves we would encounter surprises while enjoying the production process, at the same time as considering whether the story of the expansion would be exciting and fun for the players. In the last expansion Shadowbringers, I had thought that players must have grown tired of being referred to as a Warrior of Light. I also came up with the idea of reversing the conventional notion of light equating to justice or something holy and darkness equating to evil or something bad to generate a sense of surprise.

The current state of global affairs is incredibly complex and simple two-dimensional theories of good/bad from ancient times can no longer quantify this world we live in. As such, a large factor [that contributed to the selection of these themes] is that I thought I could cultivate new values and a new sense of realisation within myself by changing perspective and carefully considering the other party’s arguments in regard to a given event. Half of the time these things are born from one’s intuition and flashes of inspiration. I guessed as much but it really is hard to explain. (laughs)

Source: https://www.impulsegamer.com/naoki-y...vs-lore-story/

The last paragraph, in particular, is very important. I think some people are getting a little too close to unintentionally trying to shame and police which characters and factions others root for to the point of claiming that unless the story goes a certain way, it is somehow going to be terrible.

Endwalker releases in roughly sixteen days. Given that nuance has been a common theme in the game's story all along, I don't see that suddenly vanishing with the upcoming expansion and I believe it to be a safe bet that it'll play into how Zodiark, Hydaelyn and Venat are handled.

[MikkoAkure]

Yes, but they're characters in the story. It's a little different when people viewing from the outside still hold Hydaelyn up as a goddess.

At this point, everyone is fully aware that Hydaelyn is a primal so I’m not sure what you’re talking about.

[KageTokage]

I question whether the Convocation genuinely didn't know where the sound or Final Days originated from or if they simply stopped caring after Zodiark was created and tempered them all...save for Fandaniel who seems to have potentially been waiting eons for a chance to enact his little world destruction scheme without anyone to get in his way.

I do feel like both occurrences are likely linked to the lifestream/underworld, though, as there's implications the Ancients were toying with forces beyond their comprehension in the first of Emet's short stories and perhaps they may have inadvertently created or awakened something that lead to their downfall...or it could've been very deliberate.

[Lauront]

I think people's perception of the situation is very much "this was your character, just very far in the past". It would be one thing if Azem was very different from WoL, but by all accounts they behave all but exactly alike. Therefore I think it's reasonable to look at how Azem stood apart from both factions and question WoL's allegiances to one in the modern day.

Yes, indeed, Hythlodaeus also remarks upon the similarities, and I still think they will draw on the erstwhile friendship with the trio of Elidibus, Hades and Hythlodaeus in the future.

It's quite a leap from "they weren't a completely perfect and infallible society" to "they deserved to be genocided and their souls smeared across fourteen realities". This is really a sticking point with various Final Days theories - There really isn't much that they could reasonably be responsible for that could possibly justify the total extermination of all life on the planet.

That is the crux of it for me. It's one thing to say they were flawed - even gods in various pantheons are, including no less the Olympians - quite another to jump from there, to the view that they somehow deserve their destruction and annihilation (while simultaneously maintaining a position that, in spite of sharing such flaws, the sundered wouldn't deserve it), which to be quite honest I find to be a poor fit with the themes of reconciliation and moving on but with remembrance of the past in mind, communicated both in-game but also across a number of interviews, including those posted by Theodric.

In the end, Azem was part of this society, all sundered ancients are remnants of it, and their civilisation has already suffered a huge tragedy, which can only be reversed at significant cost... they have also been pushing the theme that light or dark are not inherently good or bad, including when referencing the Amano art for EW, and have hinted at EW being even more morally grey than SHB. A neat resolution to the war between light and dark, which just has light wiping out the latter (epitomised by a nihilistic villain in Fandaniel), is to me rather at odds with all that, and it is why I lean towards a third party pushing the conflict so as to allow a shift of focus onto it as the true enemy, rather than saying this was some unfathomably corrupt civilisation that deserved its end, and good riddance to it... The focal point seems to be the conflict surrounding how they were to recover and move forward from the crisis.

In any case, we will likely have an answer soon, one way or another.

I question whether the Convocation genuinely didn't know where the sound or Final Days originated from or if they simply stopped caring after Zodiark was created and tempered them all...save for Fandaniel who seems to have potentially been waiting eons for a chance to enact his little world destruction scheme without anyone to get in his way.

I do feel like both occurrences are likely linked to the lifestream/underworld, though, as there's implications the Ancients were toying with forces beyond their comprehension in the first of Emet's short stories and perhaps they may have inadvertently created or awakened something that lead to their downfall...or it could've been very deliberate.

Thinking along fairly similar lines, I agree that any of those permutations would work, and go hand in hand with either an extrinsic or intrinsic cause, be it accidental or not. There are a lot of references in the Hades fight and in the final boss fight of Amaurot to Olympian succession from the Titans. We have little light so far on the Scions of Darkness, with the Convocation deriving its titles from the Scions of Light, but nonetheless both feature in the game, so I am curious as to whether they will fill that role, of imprisoned ancient - perhaps malevolent - forces that had found a way/willing collaborator to let them loose.

In the short story there is certainly the implication that something had gone wrong with the soul attaching itself to the arcane creation. We can fathom any number of reasons for it, be it something entering or awakening in the Underworld and spooking souls passing through it, or their experiments going in new directions, or even the star itself behaving unpredictably... to me it looks like something rattled the souls in the Underworld and, probably the elementals, too.

An interesting theory I've seen is that Anima may be a bit like Eden - only, a creature of the "sound", transformed after being hit by a big blast of primal energy from big daddy Z, or even Hydaelyn... if so it'd bestow upon it some remarkable and quite primal-like properties. Although Ultima did set the precedent for otherworldly beings having a primal formed on top of them, so there's that.

[Veloran]

What I was referring to there was the End of Days, and notably there, we don't really have any notion of life before that point that says their society was anything less than perfect. That doesn't sound right to me, because this isn't a game that introduces perfect fallen societies despite ample chance to, there's always been acknowledged flaws (other stories would've been happy to paint Sharlayan, Allag, Ala Mhigo, Doma, Bozja, or the Crystarium as effectively perfect).

How true is this really though? What flaws is the Crystarium supposed to have, they're too reliant on the Exarch? What flaws were Nym or Amdapor supposed to have, they participated in a war? What flaws were the dragons supposed to have, Nidhogg was too suspicious? Not every society is given some deep intrinsic flaw or sin that justifies it's downfall.

What you're talking about is the Sundering.

I'm talking about both, because collectively together they were the Ancient's doom.

And actually... that's rather different, because with that one we do know they did bad; they were ready and willing to forcibly genocide every single non-Ancient sentient life.

This would be a salient point if not for the fact that it's completely off-base and at odds with what is actually told to us. It is not said that they were going to "genocide every single non-Ancient sentient life". Never are we told that sapient lifeforms were to be among those sacrificed, and it is very explicitly said that they only intended to sacrifice a portion of the world's rejuvenated living energy to Zodiark, after it had time to recover. To say the situation is supposed to be a Biblical cautionary tale against them and then describe it in that way is a gross mischaracterization of the situation.

Hythlodaeus, a person who was certainly speaking truth,

Not that I intend to cast doubt on his version of events here, but his name does literally mean "speaker of nonsense".

At this point, everyone is fully aware that Hydaelyn is a primal so I’m not sure what you’re talking about.

Look back at what I was responding to in that post you originally quoted.

[Mansion]

Have been meaning for a while to bring that up. I like names - particularly referential ones - to have some point as to why they're used. I mean, aside from the fact FF will always have a Cid, and lots of characters in FFXIV reference characters from games in earlier in the series, when they don't (unless they had a Hythlodaeus somewhere earlier I've missed entirely), is it one of those times the game series plucks a name and its "real world"-yet-quite-fictional counterpart be damned, or is there a point to it? Given that Utopia and (Shakespeare's) The Tempest (and by extension, the film Forbidden Planet*) seemed to be providing some kind of external framing to the story, I wonder if they're simply just playing with the reference and putting it on its head, or if there's something further to it. I don't think we can know for sure, and although I'd like to go with what the shade says is how it was/is, its name is distracting me just enough to not feel entirely certain about anything it says.

My question is mostly a rhetorical sideline, however; I think it ultimately just serves to reinforce the not 100% "rightness" of any of the involved parties.

I think FFXIV has much more "surface level" references than a deeper meaning that actually frames the narrative. Hythlodaeus for instance, I don't think his name means that he is telling lies but rather like the character he is named after, he is the first contact we have with a place completely unknown to us, which our minds can barely fathom. It's that kind of non-sense, not lies. We can just barely grasp the power of the Ancients through our contact with Hythlodaeus. His name doesn't have a literal value.
Same goes for Titania, Tempest etc. they nod to cultural references but don't necesseraly bring the limits they would imply.

[Theodric]

Hythlodaeus being the 'Speaker of Nonsense' could also be a playful reference to his personality. He has an established friendship with Emet-Selch and Azem, teasing both in the manner a close friend is prone to get away with.

It also wouldn't be the first time that a reference was 'reversed'. Doma's river, in FFVI, is poisoned by Kefka. Doma's river, in FFXIV, is exploited as a means to flood Doma Castle in order to more readily attack Yotsuyu and her forces.