The questions I want EW to answer the most: WHY and HOW was the world sundered?

[Cleretic]

Fun fact: Amaurot and Hythlodeus originally come from a 500 year old story called “Utopia”, meaning “no place” or “nowhere” and is actually the origin of the modern use of the word “utopia”.

Amaurot is the capital of the fictional land of Utopia: a supposedly ideal place led by philosopher-kings and there’s no greed and crime, but their society and culture is extremely strict. They have no privacy, and they have slaves.

It’s not a coincidence that they used names from this story, but how deep of a meaning that holds will remain to be seen. What is known is that they’re still a society where everyone dresses exactly the same, boring way, they do nothing but debate each other, and they don’t interfere with outside affairs despite their power.

Yes! I mention this in my hour-long Ascian video, I just didn't go further into it because A: I haven't read the book, and B: it's not clear if or how that's relevant. But on the actual morality of Amaurot... yeah, it is worth noting that even the book it takes its name from says that there's no way it can be perfect, I believe even the book ends with outright saying 'that sounds nice but it's only a story and cannot exist'.

(I do hope the cause of the Sound and Final days isn't completely unknown from us either... I don't want some kind of FF9 Necron flying up like "Henlo" as the 90 trial.)

While I agree, we are in a weird spot there where nothing we know of could cause those things, so by nature if we fight the Soundmaker in Endwalker it does kinda have to come out of nowhere. That said, there are a few angles:
A: Just... wait, play a longer game. Introduce elements that pay off later.
B: Make for more of a thematic thing; FFIX has Necron come out of nowhere because he's an embodiment of death, and the whole story's about death*. Make the Soundmaker an embodiment of a significant theme of the story (say, the cycle of persecution to extremism to persecution, or the sins of previous civilizations), it won't feel as out of nowhere.
C: Get referential. Even if the Soundmaker comes out of nowhere, people won't really mind if it's Lavos or something; they know Lavos, so they can shortcut the whole explanation themselves.
D: Introduce a disciple or aspect of it, then lead back to the Soundmaker. This one I'm guessing they're up to; Fandaniel knows things we don't about the End of Days, so he's in prime position to lay down the path leading to the Soundmaker so it's not from nowhere.

*As an unrelated thing, I do think it would've worked better if FFIX instead went for their original idea and made Hades the final boss. I think they went with Necron instead because he's more neutral and the story isn't about dealing with the notion of 'you might go to hell when you die' but rather 'someday you will die' in general, but at least the benefit of Hades is everyone can recognize he's a Death Thing, while with Necron it can be lost on someone.

[Mansion]

While I agree, we are in a weird spot there where nothing we know of could cause those things, so by nature if we fight the Soundmaker in Endwalker it does kinda have to come out of nowhere. That said, there are a few angles:

I'm pretty sure the nature of the "Soundmaker" will be revealed as something new, that could be expanded upon with time. 6.0 is the End of the current storyline, but we can learn a bit more about Time before the ancients in the patches I guess. But it's still odd to me that the big resolution of a 10 year long storyline would be something introduced in the last hours of the game.

I don't think pulling out a Lavos / Jenova would work here, because in these games the story gradually unveil details about these antagonists and that is crucial about their identities / motivations, while just using these as a reference without having a build-up within FFXIV's span would feel underwhelming (if not lazy). I don't think they would go that way.

So for me options A and D are the most plausible, and I'm sure the writers are competent enough to make Endwalker a satisfactory end to the storyline, I'm just curious about how this will play against my own expectations!

[vormela]

Utopia by Thomas More is available to read on Project Gutenberg--if you search "utopia thomas more html" or something it should come up. I feel like it will be worth reading for the similarities of the government of Sharlayan which is probably the view we will get of how things went down in in-game Amaurot. Also how Garlemald might have been inspired by in-game Amaurot and done some things better (a prediction).

I think our role in the Convocation is pretty much directly lifted from Utopia...whether it is about Azem's role as a a priest/councilman, diplomacy between the other towns/tribes, the idea of logic winning out through debate over religious schisms in their society... the secrecy between intimate acquaintances (hello in-game Hythlodaeus who let us into the blueprint room without authorization) being dangerous and severely punished. I really came out of reading Utopia thinking in-game Hythlodaeus accidentally caused a lot of problems (like wanting Emet-Selch to go against custom and share the news of his promotion with Azem)...

They also mention travel between cities and other societies and how they interact with Amaurot, which is what I expect to be relevant when we go to the "new world." There are some culture clashes!

And even stuff like voluntary euthenasia is discussed (Tesleen's people, the phoenix in the short story, etc...you could argue that really all we know about Emet-Selch's role is that he was the priest guy who put down the sick souls yet has such a problem letting go and so goes on to fortify civilizations and clone people (Allagan Empire) to bring back what he lost, which is really heartwrenching).

I think my biggest takeaway from it was that the book divides up the society to show how the utopia/dystopia functions. I don't know if they use it to teach the concept or not anymore but it helps to have it chapter by chapter. When you visit the Crystarium and Eulmore, you see things that are like an evolved version of stuff we saw or could have imagined in Amaurot. The details that were not filled in (on purpose or not). Like, a big one for me is was there slavery (obviously there was social stratification because there was a priesthood...and it isn't clear who was doing the farming and cubus-patrol... there is continued stratification in that there are people like Fandaniel wandering around in literal chains).

...

[vormela]

Minor details are also enjoyable and make you appreciate the graphic design elements that went into the story. Emet-Selch's character design (and the Convocation getup) seems to have a lot of references to Utopia (the hair cut above the ears, the robes, the slave (??) earring made of gold and pearl). In-game Amaurot's iron facades, automatically opening bi-fold doors, endless height, and its geographical location (isolated and next to a tall cliff...in this case the cliff is like the continental shelf though) are also from there. The Crystarium shares the iron/glass architecture and to an extent Garlemald does too.

It is just a great read in general to understand how FFXIV has pieced together these dystopian societies and makes you appreciate the work that goes into even the fetch quest type side quests and character costumes. Also retrofitting old story stuff (like Garlemald architecture as I mentioned) and where its inspiration may have come from. Now I even feel like all the nodes in Azys Lla were programmed to have the same voice as the elevator in in-game Amaurot. They are just that good at tying all the stories together and layering them.


It would be cool to do a book club type of thing for some of these references. If anyone is interested let me know. My brain is mush and you know if you have read this long but I love hearing what other people might get out of it.

ETA: I think getting some inputs from outside the closed system would help the community, too, because a lot of times it feels like an echo chamber. So yes very interested in this idea, and not of the Streamer generation to be familiar enough with how to make this work.

[Darkstride]

Technically speaking, you can do so for an indeterminate amount of time after your subscription expires. I was able to do so for around two weeks the last time I let my sub lapse. This is offset by having to wait a similar amount of time after resubbing to have forum access again. It's really weird.

Again, I'm not trying to derail the thread, this was in response to the person saying they would cancel their subscription, but still keep posting...

In my experience it has nothing to do with my subscription, which I rarely have lapse. If I go 14 days without logging in (with an active subscription), the forums give me a message stating that because I haven't logged
into the game recently, I cannot log into the forum. I have to login into the game and then within the next day or so the forum will update and allow me access again. I can't use the forums unless I actively play the game.

I'm referring to this:

[Cilia]

Something I wrote on another forum about this, essentially talking about how there's two ways to take the general concept of 'blame the Ancients for their downfall', and both are actually very different in terms of both arguments and motivation.



Essentially, the people 'blaming' the Ancients for the End of Days fall into one of two camps (with some people who likely believe both): Those who say they caused it, and those who say they deserved it. And so it's important to recognize who's coming from which angle.

Personally, I mostly come from the second, because frankly I don't buy that Amaurot is as perfect as claimed. FFXIV isn't the type of game to do a flat, perfectly innocent society; there has to be some shadows being cast somewhere. At the same time, I'm also aware of the possibility that they might be responsible for the event itself, just by virtue of 'we don't know what did it, so maybe they did it'.

As far as the Final Days alone, I'm more in the former - if only because cause and effect dictates something is behind it, Amaurot is the only place we know of from before the Sundering, and I'm not willing to bet on space aliens until all other options have been exhausted. I'd not say they deserved it. Emet-Selch says it was perfect, and by and large believes it was, but perfection is a matter of perspective. I often make light of "possible" theories, but perfection is one of the few things I consider truly impossible, and even if it is there's no meaning in it. By saying something is perfect you are saying it never needs to change, and thus doom it to stagnation and, in the end, death or obsolescence.

The Sundering? Well, I don't think they deserved it, but being so conceited as to believe they could treat the rest of the world's life as fuel to return to the pre-Final Days status quo... and seemingly keep that status quo forever... I can't help but feel they brought it on themselves.

Overall I feel the Final Days / Sundering are very much an "expulsion from paradise" analogue; the world was once perfect, but when faced with a crisis the people gave in to temptation trying to restore the old status quo, and in so doing fell from grace and were expelled from paradise. That's why Utopia references abound with the Ancients - that place may have once existed, but it no longer can, and no matter how hard the Ascians tried or even if they succeeded in rejoining the worlds it was never going to come back (which is the real tragedy about the Ascians and their mission). Time marches forward, not back. That's how I see it, anyway.

[kaynide]

...

It does beg the question, if the Ancients triggered the sundering rather than an external entity, what could they have done to cause the star to go out of balance to the point of the aether going crazy?

Based on story beats, I'd guess:

1) This has something to do with the lay lines we're seeing related to the towers. (The ancients have knowledge on how to draw aether from the planet itself)
2) Possibly, this has something to do with the ancients discovering a means of cheating death/reincarnation; does this require huge amounts of aether? Does it involve tampering with the Lifestream? Did the lifesteam..break..with this tampering? (Is this connected to the religious beliefs of the Azim Steppe?)
3) Perhaps the Ascians are themselves actually Primals (Actually, Guardian Forces), having shed their mortal bodies (a la Hades). This would explain their need for huge amounts of aether, possibly draining the planet.
4) It's the Dark Crystal; The Ascians are the Skeksis. The 12 Gods are the Mystics. (I'm 1/2 joking)

...I'm still on Team Lavos, but there are a LOT of ways the story could go, each with amazing potential.

[MikkoAkure]

It's the Dark Crystal; The Ascians are the Skeksis. The 12 Gods are the Mystics. (I'm 1/2 joking)

mmMMMmmmm.

[Iscah]

4) It's the Dark Crystal; The Ascians are the Skeksis. The 12 Gods are the Mystics. (I'm 1/2 joking)

Well, Zodiark is quite literally a Dark Crystal...

Though in this case, we don't want to stick it back together.

[Cleretic]

Though in this case, we don't want to stick it back together.

From what I have heard this is by no means a universally agreed-on idea. In fact some amount of players (I'm hoping an insignificant amount, but I do keep finding them...) think that should be the goal, no matter the consequences or casualties.

I'm not sure if said players have realized that the casualties include themselves.