The questions I want EW to answer the most: WHY and HOW was the world sundered?

[KizuyaKatogami]

I think that a much more surprising outcome than Hydaelyn being evil would be one in which Zodiark is good. The short story 'Ere Our Curtain Falls' outright states that Zodiark became the will of the star and averted the final days. So who was the third party that caused the final days? And if Zodiark defeated them, then why was Hydaelyn necessary at all? Why sunder and seal away an evil that you can simply defeat?

I mean, how would that be surprising exactly?ShB basically confirmed Zodiark himself didnt do anything wrong. He saved the world lol. Literally if it wasnt for him the entire planet wouldve been destroyed.

[Darkstride]

I think that a much more surprising outcome than Hydaelyn being evil would be one in which Zodiark is good. The short story 'Ere Our Curtain Falls' outright states that Zodiark became the will of the star and averted the final days. So who was the third party that caused the final days? And if Zodiark defeated them, then why was Hydaelyn necessary at all? Why sunder and seal away an evil that you can simply defeat?

Are we even certain that there was a third party that caused the end of days? We know there was a sound, and I have always been under the impression that their fear of the unknown, through creation magic, brought about the end. Their fear gained so much momentum that they willed their own demise into existence.

It's entirely possible that I misunderstood it, but do we even know enough of the sound to be sure that it even was anything tangible to danger? Or was it just a sound?

Prior to that, Elidibus had stated that although there had been occasional disagreements, they were always fleeting. But this time it was not. The fear was too intense. Zodiark was summoned to stop the end of the world, but there were those that still feared the power of their savior. Hydaelyn was summoned to, again, put an end to their fear by enervating Zodiark. They couldn't return the world to a place where they had control of their own existence. Had they not been sundered by the event, they probably would have continued to be even more self destructive.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Are we even certain that there was a third party that caused the end of days? We know there was a sound, and I have always been under the impression that their fear of the unknown, through creation magic, brought about the end. Their fear gained so much momentum that they willed their own demise into existence.

It's entirely possible that I misunderstood it, but do we even know enough of the sound to be sure that it even was anything tangible to danger? Or was it just a sound?

Prior to that, Elidibus had stated that although there had been occasional disagreements, they were always fleeting. But this time it was not. The fear was too intense. Zodiark was summoned to stop the end of the world, but there were those that still feared the power of their savior. Hydaelyn was summoned to, again, put an end to their fear by enervating Zodiark. They couldn't return the world to a place where they had control of their own existence. Had they not been sundered by the event, they probably would have continued to be even more self destructive.

They had lived thousands upon thousands of years perfectly fine. I highly doubt it was their own doing that caused it as they most likely wouldnt have survived that long if they really were as self destructive as some people seem to believe.

[waifugenerator]

The image in my head of Azem is that they were right on the cusp of figuring out what the Sound is and then bam sundered, after we deal with Zenos and Fandaniel we'll probably pick up where Azem left off. I don't think Hydaelyn and Zodiark will really factor into it at all (we obviously can't kill either one, or the existing zones will irrevocabley change )

[Lauront]

Are we even certain that there was a third party that caused the end of days? We know there was a sound, and I have always been under the impression that their fear of the unknown, through creation magic, brought about the end. Their fear gained so much momentum that they willed their own demise into existence.

It's entirely possible that I misunderstood it, but do we even know enough of the sound to be sure that it even was anything tangible to danger? Or was it just a sound?

Prior to that, Elidibus had stated that although there had been occasional disagreements, they were always fleeting. But this time it was not. The fear was too intense. Zodiark was summoned to stop the end of the world, but there were those that still feared the power of their savior. Hydaelyn was summoned to, again, put an end to their fear by enervating Zodiark. They couldn't return the world to a place where they had control of their own existence. Had they not been sundered by the event, they probably would have continued to be even more self destructive.

To add to the point Kizuya made, we have very little notion of what caused it, other than that a sound originating from the Underworld precipitated it. Fandaniel, invoking a seemingly ancient term like Telophoroi, is very much able to reproduce/reignite the crisis, so a possible manufactured (=caused by someone or something) origin is very much within the region of possibility. Even if it runs counter to my story preferences, I don't discount the possibility of them somehow causing the Final Days accidentally/in spite of their own wishes or knowledge (which would be tragic in its own right), but what I mentioned about Fandaniel is pushing me towards the situation being inflicted upon them, be it by a third party or resentful member of their own society, or even both collaborating. Something to bear in mind is that Venat's group had concerns about Zodiark, but it's never stated they were founded in fact, and if you wanted to plunge the ancients into a civil war to give the hypothetical cause of the sound a chance to return, whoever or whatever the instigator might be, exploiting such fears in a well-intentioned group is an excellent method of doing so. Were they to take Venat down the route of an antagonist, I'd imagine they'd opt for one like Yunalesca, where she had the best of intentions but at the same time tried to compel Yuna to fulfil her duties as she saw them, and go through with the Final Summoning. Hardly cackling villain material.

It's not really direct lies, but lies of omission. She uses peoples' ignorance of her true nature to present herself as a goddess and task people under that false pretense with combating the Ascians and their influence. Further she's not exactly forthcoming with the truth (for whatever reason), and Emet-Selch implies if not outright states she covered up the history of Amaurot after the Sundering. (Why? Who knows.)

The possibility that neither Hydaelyn nor Emet-Selch are lying about anything isn't lost on me. There are ways to reconcile their conflicting viewpoints. That said we don't have Hydaelyn's side of the story - but we do have a reliable (though very biased) expositor on the history of the world pre-Sundering whose claims are pretty well backed up. I don't think Hydaelyn is necessarily lied about that but with the information presented in Shadowbringers... yeah, she kinda did.

There is also Elidibus's 5.0 epilogue, where he claims both she and her summoners wish for the origins of the world to be concealed from the knowledge of the sundered. It is a monologue so we can take it that there is no element of deceit, and while he may be acting on the basis of flawed knowledge, it ties up with what Emet said and her own evasiveness on the topic. Furthermore, I wouldn't be surprised if it's knowledge he came about in his capacity as a mediator.

[Alenore]

Are we even certain that there was a third party that caused the end of days? We know there was a sound, and I have always been under the impression that their fear of the unknown, through creation magic, brought about the end. Their fear gained so much momentum that they willed their own demise into existence.

It's entirely possible that I misunderstood it, but do we even know enough of the sound to be sure that it even was anything tangible to danger? Or was it just a sound?

There isn't really any indication that the Sound came from *something*. It may be a natural occurrence of the laws of nature ("Every 15000 years the aether resonates and the sound happens"), some unforseen effect of some rogue ancient's experiments, something doing it on purpose, the Ancients playing a bit too much with Creation (what if Zodiark was summoned to replace a previous Will of the Star which decided the ancients had to be wiped out?)...
We have absolutely no information and it's pure conjecture..

To add to the point Kizuya made, we have very little notion of what caused it, other than that a sound originating from the Underworld precipitated it. Fandaniel, invoking a seemingly ancient term like Telophoroi, is very much able to reproduce/reignite the crisis, so a possible manufactured (=caused by someone or something) origin is very much within the region of possibility. Even if it runs counter to my story preferences, I don't discount the possibility of them somehow causing the Final Days accidentally/in spite of their own wishes or knowledge (which would be tragic in its own right), but what I mentioned about Fandaniel is pushing me towards the situation being inflicted upon them, be it by a third party or resentful member of their own society, or even both collaborating. Something to bear in mind is that Venat's group had concerns about Zodiark, but it's never stated they were founded in fact, and if you wanted to plunge the ancients into a civil war to give the hypothetical cause of the sound a chance to return, whoever or whatever the instigator might be, exploiting such fears in a well-intentioned group is an excellent method of doing so. Were they to take Venat down the route of an antagonist, I'd imagine they'd opt for one like Yunalesca, where she had the best of intentions but at the same time tried to compel Yuna to fulfil her duties as she saw them, and go through with the Final Summoning. Hardly cackling villain material.



There is also Elidibus's 5.0 epilogue, where he claims both she and her summoners wish for the origins of the world to be concealed from the knowledge of the sundered. It is a monologue so we can take it that there is no element of deceit, and while he may be acting on the basis of flawed knowledge, it ties up with what Emet said and her own evasiveness on the topic. Furthermore, I wouldn't be surprised if it's knowledge he came about in his capacity as a mediator.

I'd argue that Fandaniel having to use artificial ways to mimick the Final Days points toward it being a natural occurrence more than something someone triggered on purpose.

To me, he's using the beings he enslaved in the towers to create nightmarish ceatures instead of the Ancients calling them forth. If there was abducted ancients stuck in towers or something similar, I think things would have happened differently pre-Zodiark.
If an illusion of the Final Days is enough to awaken the Echo, couldn't an illusion of the Sound (and we've heard weird sounds nearby towers) be enough to awaken this nightmare and thus, mimick the flawed creation given there's enough shards to do it? After all, if the vision of an end of your civilization is enough to let such a mark on someone's aether, wouldn't the thing causing all this destruction leave an equally profound mark?

As for why she wouldn't want people to know about pre-sundering, if she sundered the World on purpose to counter whatever threat or lock creation magick or whatnot, it would be quite counter-productive to let people know they used to be demigods able to conjure whatever they wanted. That'd be like telling a recovering alcoholic there used to be a better time when everything was greener. Some omissions are for people's good.

[Lauront]

I'd argue that Fandaniel having to use artificial ways to mimick the Final Days points toward it being a natural occurrence more than something someone triggered on purpose.

To me, he's using the beings he enslaved in the towers to create nightmarish ceatures instead of the Ancients calling them forth. If there was abducted ancients stuck in towers or something similar, I think things would have happened differently pre-Zodiark.
If an illusion of the Final Days is enough to awaken the Echo, couldn't an illusion of the Sound (and we've heard weird sounds nearby towers) be enough to awaken this nightmare and thus, mimick the flawed creation given there's enough shards to do it? After all, if the vision of an end of your civilization is enough to let such a mark on someone's aether, wouldn't the thing causing all this destruction leave an equally profound mark?

I can't say I agree. The main issue in re-enacting it exactly as it went down in ancient times is a lack of creation magicks, so the fuel in question is missing - hence, workarounds such as tempering groups of imprisoned beings who collectively possess adequate fuel to engage in summonings (we still haven't seen yet what will trigger the flood of terminus-type beasts.) If that can be circumvented and it can be reproduced (because it's not clear he is simply mimicking it) even in their absence, it would suggest that hijacking creation magicks is but one way to go about it, and that he is working with alternatives.

To be clear, when I say "natural", I'm specifically referring to the notion of it being a byproduct of the use of creation magicks, build up of subconscious fears over time etc. I.e. something that, while not necessarily the fault of the ancients, just happened thanks to their characteristics or those of the star itself. Disgruntled or hostile agents (either within or outwith their society) fomenting it, or potentially collaborating with external forces (e.g. if the sound is associated with some kind of hostile entity) within the Underworld itself to do so, would be an artificial cause. His very existence, hatred of the concept of life/existence itself and usage of (in the context of the setting) ancient branding leads me to weigh the latter possibility more heavily.

Is it possible it was entirely "natural" in the sense I mentioned? Of course, but you can have it be artificial in both cases but having to adjust the plan in version 2.0 simply because the fuel that was used for it the first time doesn't exist this time round. As you mentioned, the sound is heard around the towers a lot, including when he is discussing the so-called "dreamer". But then who is to say it is a mere illusion? I expect they will touch on that because it is the potential culprit of them losing control over their powers, so its origin and cause are of great interest, but nonetheless, he strikes me as someone with both the motivation and ability to have been responsible both times, albeit using tools suited to what is available in each instance. But yes, it's not decisive.

As for why she wouldn't want people to know about pre-sundering, if she sundered the World on purpose to counter whatever threat or lock creation magick or whatnot, it would be quite counter-productive to let people know they used to be demigods able to conjure whatever they wanted. That'd be like telling a recovering alcoholic there used to be a better time when everything was greener. Some omissions are for people's good.

Sure, my view is she did (mis?)diagnose creation magicks as the cause and I am sure she thinks it is for their own good. I am sure she did so with benign intentions. Similarly, I'd note that Yunalesca also believed in the goodness of the Final Summoning, to provide hope to the peoples of Spira, even if it was a form of deception. The point is that irrespective of the intention behind hiding the origins of the world, it is a form of deception.

[Iscah]

Azem chose not to side with her.

An additional thought on this: as far as we are aware, Hydaelyn's summoners gave their own lives to fuel the summoning – in which case Azem's refusal could be in the vein of "it sounds like a great idea but I can't afford to die for it because there's something else important that I need to do."

So who was the third party that caused the final days? And if Zodiark defeated them, then why was Hydaelyn necessary at all? Why sunder and seal away an evil that you can simply defeat?

Putting aside the question of whether there was a third party at all, Hydaelyn was created as a counterbalance to the already-created Zodiark, making her "necessary" regardless of any other factors.

They had lived thousands upon thousands of years perfectly fine. I highly doubt it was their own doing that caused it as they most likely wouldnt have survived that long if they really were as self destructive as some people seem to believe.

Lasting thousands of years isn't, in itself, proof that they can continue further on the same path. Something may be happening that builds up over time and only creates a problem when it reaches a tipping point.

For an in-universe example at a human level, you have the War of the Magi. Both Amdapor and Mhach were powerful nations that stood for a long time, but their spellcasting eventually depleted the land of aether and ultimately triggered a Calamity.

[Darkstride]

They had lived thousands upon thousands of years perfectly fine. I highly doubt it was their own doing that caused it as they most likely wouldnt have survived that long if they really were as self destructive as some people seem to believe.

I never meant to imply that they were always self destructive. In fact, I'd say that they were very much in control. They lived for so long without any real conflict. They governed their own existence and commanded creation magic with little to nothing to fear. Until the sound - something they could not understand or explain or control. It's very possible that they had never experienced fear to a point that it would cause panic or irrational thought.

[Vyrerus]

If your issue is the "light and dark did once dwell as one" thing, then you don't actually know that's not true. It very well could be. So I don't see how Hydaelyn is deceitful at all.

We do actually, though. She directly references what she did to Zodiark with that, the planet with that, and lies to frame the Ascians as bad. She also omits that she sundered all life. It's a big lie, given contemporary context.