The questions I want EW to answer the most: WHY and HOW was the world sundered?

[Theodric]

It's not exactly a secret though. We can see the story changed significantly from ARR to ShB. Really after 3.0 was when the presentation of Hydaelyn shifted away from true goddess towards primal.

Yeah. There's also suspicious comments made by Lakshmi in regards to the Warrior of Light's soul being 'Stained'. Which may or may not imply that the Warrior of Light is Tempered. Especially since 'Stained' is, I believe, the rough translation of Tempering in the Japanese localisation. Add to that recent knowledge of an actual cure for Tempering combined with the frequent display of various degrees of Tempering severity then I don't believe it to be a farfetched theory in the slightest.

Furthermore, even if the Warrior of Light is not Tempered at present then that doesn't mean that it won't be a possible threat in the future, especially if Hydaelyn tries to compel the Warrior of Light to do something that he does not want to do. Which could involve something entirely well meaning but sinister - such as a second Sundering or attempting to compel the Warrior of Light to serve as the new heart of Hydaelyn.

[MikkoAkure]

It's not exactly a secret though. We can see the story changed significantly from ARR to ShB. Really after 3.0 was when the presentation of Hydaelyn shifted away from true goddess towards primal.

Did it really though? I would use the world "evolved" but not straight up "changed". "Changed" implies that they clearly had a specific direction they had for the game that it is no longer going in and retcons are needed in order to rectify where the story will end up. I was also under the impression they had the very end figured out, but not how to get there and we've been meandering around on the way.

Yeah. There's also suspicious comments made by Lakshmi in regards to the Warrior of Light's soul being 'Stained'. Which may or may not imply that the Warrior of Light is Tempered. Especially since 'Stained' is, I believe, the rough translation of Tempering in the Japanese localisation. Add to that recent knowledge of an actual cure for Tempering combined with the frequent display of various degrees of Tempering severity then I don't believe it to be a farfetched theory in the slightest.

That is not correct. In the Japanese version of the game, they use 「テンパード」 which is the English word "tempered" in katakana.

In regards to Lakshmi, she says "your souls are stained" in the middle of battle with absolutely no context. She also says "Do your souls not weigh heavy?" and "rest your weary souls in my bosom". Not exactly eureka material on figuring out whether we're tempered or not. On the other hand, Ifrit full on references tempering, corrects his own disciple on the matter, and had his dialogue changed with the new writing direction of ARR to change his stance on the subject.

[Cleretic]

That is not correct. In the Japanese version of the game, they use 「テンパード」 which is the English word "tempered" in katakana.

In regards to Lakshmi, she says "your souls are stained" in the middle of battle with absolutely no context. She also says "Do your souls not weigh heavy?" and "rest your weary souls in my bosom". Not exactly eureka material on figuring out whether we're tempered or not. On the other hand, Ifrit full on references tempering, corrects his own disciple on the matter, and had his dialogue changed with the new writing direction of ARR to change his stance on the subject.

Yeah, it is pretty clear in context that Lakshmi isn't exactly thinking deep and talking about something external to what her whole scene is about. Lakshmi, as the absolute most temper-happy primal (the one that knocked Ifrit to second place), basically spends every second of her screen presence selling the concept that it's super cool to live under her control. Your souls aren't 'heavy and weary' because you're already tempered, they're 'heavy and weary' because you've spent all this time thinking and acting for yourself, when you could just... not.


And there's actually been a lot of stuff that just quietly changed in the shift from 1.0 to 2.0 without any direct acknowledgement, as a result of the change in development team, it's not just Ifrit; remember Silvertear Lake which has never been important in the live game, Thaumaturge previously having access to light and dark spells, Gelmorra actually being considered in any way important, Allag practically being a footnote...

In the meantime, there's actually never been any outright rewrites or 'no, that was wrong' retcons in the live game. There is the debatable angle of Lahabrea's big Praetorium speech about Zodiark and Hydaelyn being... kinda off from what we learned is true in Shadowbringers, but even that isn't actually wrong, just a little weirdly drawn. And there's also the Emmerololth situation, but that's not one we can't square (and still one they can resolve).

There has never been any inclination to completely rewrite established fact in the live game, and trying to use 'but maybe they did with this one thing' frankly just reads like grasping at straws to believe a favorite pet theory is true despite evidence.

...and incidentally, still nobody's really been able to answer an important question: what would this add? What does this do for the story beyond being a kinda cheap gotcha?

[Vyrerus]

...wait, why do you suddenly decide this one part is the result of a lie, when we take every single other thing said both by Ifrit and the priest in this scene as truth? Why is this one part suddenly the thing we don't believe?

Why? Because we're clearly not godless. We have Hydaelyn. You yourself have said numerous times that we cannot completely trust information given to us by the Ascians, so why should we trust secondhand info from Ifrit who is speaking with knowledge learned from them? In other words, the priest may have been correct on top of Ifrit who doesn't even know that he's correct. That's what I want to highlight. They don't actually know why we resisted Tempering, but those are their best explanations.


Let's go over what the Echo actually is, because that has some bearing on the situation at hand. It's likely more interesting to you than tempering theory, but I'll get back to that.

You might know in Japanese The Echo is actually a phrase meaning, "Transcendent Power." We've been given the truth of its origin, at least mostly. It's a power that comes from the soul and relates to them greatly. As we currently understand it, anyone with The Echo is possessed of an ancient soul that corresponds to Amaurotine society. While we don't have all of the details, we know that these souls are particularly robust with a specialness to them that allows individuals possessed of them all sorts of powers.

The most important power we've been shown is the fact that if one masters the Echo then they can resist the pull of the Lifestream, and avoid being sent to the Aetherial Sea to await rebirth, upon the death of their physical body. They may also then possess another's body, overriding the body and soul of a living being. While inside of a physical body they may resist primal influence, but outside of a physical body they are a ready supply of aether for the primal to absorb, per the Leviathan/Sahagin Priest cutscene.

What this means is that souls with The Echo are souls with agency. They can resist the "natural" cycle. They can co-opt any soul weaker than themselves, or any soul without agency. It's not ever stated, but I surmise that the reason primals may do the same(except for resisting death) is because they are large embodiments of the wills of many souls given form, and at the very least have the ability to interact with souls themselves.

Hydaelyn and Zodiark are a bit different. We know for a fact that they have Amaurotines, those imbued with the Echo, at their cores. According to Hades there is no resisting such power, and he along with the Convocation were tempered. The cave paintings in Qitana Ravel show the same for Hydaelyn's faction. By this we learned that even our adamantine soul is not immune, only staggeringly resistant.

While it wasn't shown on screen, we do know of one example of Tempered beings that's up in the air. The Beastmen and Dragons used in the Telo Towers. The story very much glosses over the fact that most of those captured were of tribes already tempered. We surely didn't get the Tempering cure around that fast, as the towers came about while we struggled to free one Kobold patriarch, so how are the towers doing this? They seemingly Temper beings to Garlemald itself. For the Garleans and resistance soldiers it's no big deal, but for those that already summon primals? Those already tempered to primals? Those Lunar primals and the Meracydian dragons? They fight for the Telophoroi and summon for the Telophoroi. At a minimum the towers are new, so certainly not beholden to the old "rules" but by being that way they throw the old into the air, dashing what we know against the rocks as so much dust into the wind. Except for, they haven't overcome a soul with agency, yet.

What all this means and demonstrates is that the story is rather more inconclusive at every turn than it ever is concrete. Every time they hammer down a nail, another pops out of the other side of the board. The Amal'jaa Priest says something that is seemingly true, we belong to Hydaelyn. Unreliable Ifrit makes another assertion, which many have embraced as correct for years in spite of the phrase, "Godless Blessed" being an oxy-moron. But over the years we learn that we resist Ifrit's Tempering, because we have a stronger will and a soul with agency. If Ifrit were on Hydaelyn or Zodiark's level, then he could have tempered us.

While you've been caught up with those words being law, I have been preoccupied with the actions of the story. I may very well still be wrong, but all I'm asserting is that the possibility of the WoL having been Tempered still stands open, and it will remain open until the story closes it.

[Cleretic]

Why? Because we're clearly not godless. We have Hydaelyn. You yourself have said numerous times that we cannot completely trust information given to us by the Ascians, so why should we trust secondhand info from Ifrit who is speaking with knowledge learned from them?

[And a lot of other words]

Okay, so instead of trying to go point-by-point, I want to really focus on this, because I think we're ultimately seeing the story very differently.

To put it briefly: I don't think we are playing a story that lies to our face. Those stories exist, and they can work, but I've never once gotten the idea that FFXIV is one of them. However, despite that, FFXIV is full of people that lie. Mostly villains, but sometimes even those we're aligned with do, too (hello, Crystal Exarch).

So what does that mean, how do we balance a story we can trust with characters we can't? Well, what I think it means is that everything works to tell us something, even if what we're being told isn't direct truth. Sure, sometimes it's not saying something useful; sometimes a scene just exists to tell us Tataru is bad at magic. But basically, even a lie should be telling us the truth, just obliquely. Take Urianger telling us the 'vision of the future' which is really just a lie of context about the Black Rose Calamity; even without Urianger literally seeing it, it still underlines that there's doom on the horizon if we fail, and tells us exactly what kind of doom it is.

So, let's apply that logic to the Ifrit scene, specifically the exchange between Ifrit and the priest. What do we learn from that exchange between them, first under the assumption that lies are not being told. And for extra points, let's annotate a fact that only comes up here or if it's something that comes up elsewhere.

• That you can't get tempered if already tempered. (Exclusive info)
• That specifically, it's because a single soul isn't big enough for two of them. (Exclusive info)
• That a primal can be smarter than their master (new info at the time, later seen in Ramuh)
• That Ifrit can smell tempering, but doesn't smell it on us. (Exclusive info)
• That we are of 'the godless blessed's number' (just a new name for the Echo which we already understood we had, and not one used again)
• That the Ascians provoked all this (already established and will be slathered on rather liberally later on)

It's actually a pretty informationally dense exchange! Or at least, it is if they're right. Let's amend the list with the assumption that they were being lied to and the WoL actually is tempered, and see what we leave that scene with now. We're now looking at this scene eight years on, so we know pretty well what gets built on regardless of the accuracy of the words themselves, so we can be reasonably confident about what's still true despite the literal words being lies.

• That you can't get tempered if already tempered. (Exclusive info) No longer trustworthy intel.
  
• That specifically, it's because a single soul isn't big enough for two of them. (Exclusive info) Again, no longer trustworthy intel.
  
• That a primal can be smarter than their master (new info at the time, later seen in Ramuh) Ifrit may actually be stupider than the priest now, since the priest might still be technically correct for all we know. The base fact is still right, but we no longer have early evidence.
  
• That Ifrit can smell tempering, but doesn't smell it on us. (Exclusive info) The one time he did this was now him failing to do so.
• That we are of 'the godless blessed's number' (just a new name for the Echo which we already understood we had, and not one used again)
• That the Ascians provoked all this (already established and will be slathered on rather liberally later on)

I would have added alternative details if they were uncovered, but... well, far as I can tell, I can't see them. We end up striking every exclusive piece of information from the record, as well as a fact subtly established here, only leaving the instance when it's outright stated. (In fact, we remove all of Ifrit's intellectual prowess by way of him now being incorrect, which I don't like, because I enjoy that despite appearances Ifrit knows his stuff.) And in return we get... nothing. If we assume these guys were lied to, then this scene no longer has reason to exist.

I don't think they'd write an exchange that exists only to divulge new information, only to later say that all of that information was wrong.

So I'm going to repeat my question: What would this add? Right now, I'm only seeing it take away and provide a cheap gotcha, so I'd really like to know, what end does someone who thinks this is true expect to see from this? Is it just to get pretense to fight a blue rock?

[Veloran]

But basically, even a lie should be telling us the truth, just obliquely.

A lie can also exist to expound on a character or showcase the limits of their knowledge.

That you can't get tempered if already tempered.

There is no reason to consider this false.

That specifically, it's because a single soul isn't big enough for two of them.

With what we know now, it's because a soul can't be aspected towards multiple different wavelengths of aether at the same time.

That a primal can be smarter than their master

That Ifrit can smell tempering, but doesn't smell it on us.

The knowledge or limits thereof of the Primals has long been a point of contention. For example, an often used reasoning for excusing Hydaelyn lying to the player when revealing the "truth" about the world is that she is merely a Primal, and therefore is simply following the limits of her programing and what information she was imbued with when summoned.

Additionally, Ifrit's statements neither suggest he's more or less intelligent than his summoner, what Ifrit says doesn't directly contradict what the summoner says. He describes tempering as "a blessing", says he doesn't smell the taint of another upon WoL, then says WoL must be one of the "godless blessed" the Ascians warned about. In truth the only "contradiction", his lack of detection, is merely due to the limits of his perception. Hydaelyn is aspected to Light, rather than to the elements like the rest of the Eorzean Primals. Indeed, the Primals are all also Astrally attuned (hence the 7th Calamity of all elements attuned to Darkness), so seeing someone that is not only not aspected to any of the elements, but is further aspected to Light, would be beyond comprehension. And his two statements sandwiching this, that tempering is a blessing and WoL is one of the godless blessed, is further easily explained when considering that at the time Hydaelyn was not a "god" like the Primals were. She was conceptualized as the Lifestream, the will of the planet, the great crystal residing at the heart of the world like in many other FF games. But now, we know she is a god, of the same sort we're already so familiar with, a Primal. In this conception of the story, the blessing Ifrit ascribes to the Primals and that of Hydaelyn lacks a real distinction, the two are akin.

That we are of 'the godless blessed's number' (just a new name for the Echo which we already understood we had, and not one used again)

The Blessing of Light is not the Echo. The two provide independent resistance to tempering, and given Ifrit describes it as a "blessing", we can assume he's talking about the Blessing rather than the Echo.

So I'm going to repeat my question: What would this add? Right now, I'm only seeing it take away and provide a cheap gotcha, so I'd really like to know, what end does someone who thinks this is true expect to see from this? Is it just to get pretense to fight a blue rock?

It seems, to me, that the narrative is moving towards conflict with Hydaelyn. In the ancient past Azem did not side with the summoning of Hydaelyn and join her faction, but in the modern day WoL was chosen by Hydaelyn to serve as champion of her cause. The question of WoL's potential tempering to Hydaelyn has been raised multiple times, but the story has always danced away from giving a definitive answer. One of the few set-in-stone character traits of WoL, as expressed by both sides of their psyche in the DRK quests, is an extreme fear that they are merely a tool to be used, a "Weapon of Light", a fear that is especially telling when you consider that both Fray and Myste seem to have knowledge of WoL's Ancient heritage. The entire situation with Minfilia being roped into giving up her life for Hydaelyn, Hydaelyn outright lying to the player, Ardbert losing it at Hydaelyn ignoring their pleas for so long only to be told that some need to serve her, the twisted nature of Minfilia having to bodysnatch girls on the First and the perception of WoL or Ryne or both of Hydaelyn seeking control over people, the reveal that Hydaelyn is a Primal like all the others and her summoning destroyed the world - I don't think we can look at all this and reasonably say that Hydaelyn will just remain some kind of good-natured, protective figure on WoL's side through to the end of the story.

With the way Endwalker is set up, everything is looking to be a reenactment of the Final Days and the end of the Ancients 2.0. The conflict is repeating itself, and when it played out before Hydaelyn wasn't the key to ending the apocalypse, she was merely intended to provide a more permanent solution afterwards, one that WoL in the past didn't agree with. Now after 12,000 years half the shards have been rejoined, the problem is restarting again, so why am I to think that in the end Hydaelyn won't try to do the same thing again and resunder the Source once more, this time without any of the Unsundered around to undo it? Moreover, I believe that the story has strongly, strongly been suggesting that WoL will need to join not with Hydaelyn, but with Zodiark in order to stop the Final Days, which means that WoL will be in direct conflict with Hydaelyn on the entire purpose of her existence, while undoubtedly being morally opposed to the destruction of the Source once more. This, then, spells confrontation. And on a meta-narrative level FF14 has always heavily been about casting down false gods, Yoshida has been working on FF16 which is about "ending the legacy of the crystals", and I shouldn't need to tell you the reputation of JRPGs and killing the seemingly benevolent god at the end.

Let me ask you, what would the opposite direction for Hydaelyn add to the story? Another plot like 2.0, where the benevolent protector goddess sacrifices herself to shield the hero and defeat the darkness? Where do you think the plot is going that all of the concerns which have been raised about her over the years are answered in a peaceful and reasonable manner? What is Hydaelyn's ultimate conclusion, and what does it bring of worth to the table?

[MikkoAkure]

The knowledge or limits thereof of the Primals has long been a point of contention. For example, an often used reasoning for excusing Hydaelyn lying to the player when revealing the "truth" about the world is that she is merely a Primal, and therefore is simply following the limits of her programing and what information she was imbued with when summoned.

Additionally, Ifrit's statements neither suggest he's more or less intelligent than his summoner, what Ifrit says doesn't directly contradict what the summoner says. He describes tempering as "a blessing", says he doesn't smell the taint of another upon WoL, then says WoL must be one of the "godless blessed" the Ascians warned about. In truth the only "contradiction", his lack of detection, is merely due to the limits of his perception. Hydaelyn is aspected to Light, rather than to the elements like the rest of the Eorzean Primals. Indeed, the Primals are all also Astrally attuned (hence the 7th Calamity of all elements attuned to Darkness), so seeing someone that is not only not aspected to any of the elements, but is further aspected to Light, would be beyond comprehension. And his two statements sandwiching this, that tempering is a blessing and WoL is one of the godless blessed, is further easily explained when considering that at the time Hydaelyn was not a "god" like the Primals were. She was conceptualized as the Lifestream, the will of the planet, the great crystal residing at the heart of the world like in many other FF games. But now, we know she is a god, of the same sort we're already so familiar with, a Primal. In this conception of the story, the blessing Ifrit ascribes to the Primals and that of Hydaelyn lacks a real distinction, the two are akin.

I'm not sure what you're reading but Ifrit contradicts his summoner and says he's wrong in the text. Alexander wants to end his own existence because he knows he's sucking aether from Hydaelyn and knows a perfect world exists only without him, so he kills his own summoner. Ramuh goes against the wishes of his own summoners and allows himself to go away once judging us worthy instead of torching Gridania. He even talks about delivering the world from "Dark" with a capital "D", despite the fact that it's the Ascians who brought about his creation. One of the crystals that grants the Blessing of Light was also given to the Slyphs as a gift by Ramuh before being given to us. He speaks in a completely different manner than the Sylphs and brings up things they wouldn't know like Dark and Light being one before man existed.

Here's what Koji Fox had to say regarding Ramuh:

Fernehalwes: “It’s a little bit different from the other beast tribes. In the other tribes, they worship the primal so they summon it, then the primal goes, ‘I want more thralls!’ But Ramuh is a bit more laid back. He doesn’t want to control everyone and create a dominion where it’s just Ramuh and his followers. He’s a man of reason, he’s a judge.

But the thing is, the Sylphs are a little bit crazy. Some of the Sylphs want a strong leader. They look at the other beast tribes and they see that they’re strong because they’ve been tempered or they’ve been drowned, and that gives them that connection with their primal. So you have sylphs that want that same thing. So some sylphs go to Ramuh and ask him to temper them, and he does. But the thing is, Ramuh doesn’t force it on other sylphs. So you have a group of sylphs who aren’t worried about summoning Ramuh and just want to live in peace and then there’s the other ones who believe they have to temper more sylphs.”

Also, somehow the Primals wouldn't be able to detect specific attunements? Is that actually said anywhere in the game or are you conjecturing? And, if we were going to be tempered in the end, why didn't they just leave the 1.0 dialogue in the game instead of changing it?

The Blessing of Light is not the Echo. The two provide independent resistance to tempering, and given Ifrit describes it as a "blessing", we can assume he's talking about the Blessing rather than the Echo.

Just because Ifrit mentions blessings and what we get is called the Blessing of Light, doesn't necessarily mean they're the same thing. Nowhere at all is it said that the Blessing of Light gives resistance to tempering. There's also the fact that they both work completely differently. According to the game, the more tempered people a primal has, the more powerful they are. In the opposite direction, the Warriors of Darkness give their Blessings back to Hydaelyn in order to make her stronger.

[Veloran]

I'm not sure what you're reading but Ifrit contradicts his summoner and says he's wrong in the text.

He actually doesn't. Again, he says it's true that WoL can only have the blessing of one, that he can't detect the taint of another, and then he says that WoL is one of the "godless blessed". This isn't strictly saying his summoner is wrong, he is insisting that WoL has a blessing that rejects his own, but Ifrit doesn't recognize it as a god.

Alexander wants to end his own existence because he knows he's sucking aether from Hydaelyn and knows a perfect world exists only without him, so he kills his own summoner. Ramuh goes against the wishes of his own summoners and allows himself to go away once judging us worthy instead of torching Gridania.

I'm not sure about the relevance of these examples? I agree that it can often seem like Primals have deeper knowledge than their origins might first suggest, but I'm not seeing what you're implying.

Also, somehow the Primals wouldn't be able to detect specific attunements?

I'm not saying he necessarily wouldn't, I'm just saying that by default the blessing of Hydaelyn is very different from that of all the Eorzean Primals.

And, if we were going to be tempered in the end, why didn't they just leave the 1.0 dialogue in the game instead of changing it?

As I said before, it's pretty clear that the story has been changed and iterated upon multiple times as it's been developed. It appears to me that at the time of 2.0's development, Hydaelyn was intended to be a legitimate world-crystal, as has appeared in various other FF games.

Just because Ifrit mentions blessings and what we get is called the Blessing of Light, doesn't necessarily mean they're the same thing. Nowhere at all is it said that the Blessing of Light gives resistance to tempering.

It does suggest he was referring to the Blessing of Light rather than the Echo.

According to the game, the more tempered people a primal has, the more powerful they are. In the opposite direction, the Warriors of Darkness give their Blessings back to Hydaelyn in order to make her stronger.

They don't exactly "give them back", Hydaelyn was just given a bunch of aether stored in the crystals. WoL did it as well, and the Blessing was retained.

[Cilia]

I think people are looking at the subject too narrowly.

We know the Echo protects against tempering; that's been empirically demonstrated with numerous other sources. That said Hydaelyn tempering the PC is predicated on the argument that "Hydaelyn is more powerful than typical primals, so (maybe) she can overpower the Echo like Zodiark (maybe)."

Can she, though? Even at her apex Hydaelyn wasn't anywhere near as powerful as Zodiark (a small council vs. half of Amaurot's population), and she's only grown weaker as time has gone on (empirically demonstrated with Matoya's Crystal Eye - an ancient Crystal of Light). Is it possible Hydaelyn can overpower the Echo? Sure, it's possible. Given her power is almost completely exhausted even before the start of the game... I'm not so sure she can. I mean, Zenos' grand master plan falls apart if that's the case...

Second, there's no reason to believe the Echo's immunity to tempering means we're incapable of receiving Hydaelyn's blessing; the blessing is not necessarily tempering, in other words. Ifrit's dialogue is phrased in such a way as he considers tempering "blessing," and Hades' EX dialogue supports this idea ("We are the blessed! We are the chosen!"), but there's no reason to believe a primal couldn't bestow power upon a mortal without tempering them. Most primals just wouldn't do such a thing, since there's no benefit in it for them and the vast majority of summoned primals in the modern day use summoning arts designed to play up the worst aspects of the summoned creation, but not only is Hydaelyn from before then she is very unusual in regards to primals in the sense that she freely gives of her power to help mortals.

Third, there's no clear point at which the PC is tempered. They implicitly awaken to the Echo on the carriage ride in, do good deeds in the starting capital, get the Water Crystal and get talked at by her for the first time, and then go on the whirlwind adventure of 2.0 fighting primals and Imperials. Tempering is kind of a big deal; when exactly did that happen? And if the Blessing of Light is "just" tempering, why is Midgardsormr able to seal it away? Could he have cured tempering all along? If so why didn't he help Tiamat (and other tempered victims on Hydaelyn's order)? Were we acting fully under our own will then and not before? Did restoring the blessing restore the tempering? Wouldn't we have noticed? Why do the Ascians specifically refer to it as the "Blessing of Light," and never tempering (or a consequence thereof)?

Last... there are numerous instances of Hydaelyn's blessed chosen defying her will, as has been pointed out before. Ysayle consorts with the Ascians and summons a primal. The Warriors of Darkness consort with the Ascians and attempt to usher in another Calamity. Saint Ajora summoned Ultima, an immensely powerful and dangerous primal. In all those instances compelling those people to not do those things would very much be in Hydaelyn's interests, yet her chosen champions stray from her path and consort with Darkness.

Again, that's not to say Hydaelyn is unwilling or incapable of tempering, but all the evidence of such regarding the PC is circumstantial, and thus the case isn't terribly strong. In my opinion.

Remember, the following is always technically true:

Hydaelyn's account of the origin of her conflict with Zodiark conflicts with Emet-Selch's... but the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive with some imagination. Even then, we haven't heard her side of the story yet (something Yoshi-P himself has noted; look forward to it in Endwalker, probably), and without that I personally feel saying "She lied to us and must be put to the sword for it" is seriously jumping the gun. The very worst she's been portrayed is as a cosmic level Urianger: deceitful but well-intentioned. Compelling anyone to do anything doesn't fit her character as it's been established.

[Veloran]

Can she, though?

We neither know what the threshold to overpower the Echo would need to be, nor whether it's based on "power" in a general sense to begin with. For example, Zodiark was far more powerful than Hydaelyn, but the Ancient's Echoes were far more powerful than WoL's Echo.

but there's no reason to believe a primal couldn't bestow power upon a mortal without tempering them.

Do we have any examples of this being the case?

Tempering is kind of a big deal; when exactly did that happen?

If it's a subtle form of tempering, I doubt anyone would be able to tell.

Last... there are numerous instances of Hydaelyn's blessed chosen defying her will, as has been pointed out before.

And as has similarly been pointed out before, it may be that her tempering isn't actively controlling anybody. It's been building for years now that tempering comes in many different forms and some are all but undetectable.

The very worst she's been portrayed is as a cosmic level Urianger: deceitful but well-intentioned. Compelling anyone to do anything doesn't fit her character as it's been established.

Well-intentioned maybe, but not just deceitful. I fail to understand how you can say that compelling people to follow her will isn't in her character when A, she draws every Echo-user into following her cause without telling them the truth the moment they awaken it, B, she has given explicit commands in the past for her followers to carry out, and C, she forcibly sundered the entire world against the will of the majority of the Ancients. In particular with that last one, it shows a willingness to disregard people's lives for the sake of her mission.