SE are leaving BLM to rot by giving SMN and RDM even more utility

[Xtrasweettea]

Balance takes priority, always.

Right, that’s why BLMs are top DPS for caster while RDMs are not even close.

Verraise being locked to SMN would be like how Shadewalker/Smokeskin was locked to NIN during HW/SB. This was removed for balance reasons along with enmity.

You mean, RDM, right? SMN doesn’t have VerRaise.

Shadewalker was an enmity manipulation tool. The whole enmity system changed for ShB. SE didn’t need to keep Shadewalker. What purpose would an enmity manipulation tool when tanks gain enmity and manipulate their own enmity?

You are comparing apples to oranges.

Similar analog would be raises removed along with caster raises entirely, which is what 7.0 would look like. Plus, you can replace Verraise with any cookie cutter white magic skill and most people will be fine with it. They've already added a magick barrier and I only foresee more things to be added along those lines.

You cannot replace VerRaise with any cookie cutter white magic skill and assume most people will be fine with it.

I am one of those people who will not be fine with it.

FF14 RDM is the already the least “Red Mage” out of all of the Red Mages in the main series. RDM has been historically a hybrid job and a “jack of all trades.” It didn’t do one thing great, but it could fill in the gaps. That filling in the gaps included raising, healing, and buffing. Based on your party comp, your RDMs were your main healers.

FF14’s RDM lost most of that hybrid capability in order to fit into the Holy Trinity as a DPS. Embolden, VerRaise, VerCure, and that new magicked barrier ability are just the reminders of what RDMs could do in the other games.

Take away VerRaise because it’s not fair the BLM doesn’t have a raise for “balance”, you might as well take away VerCure. I am sure VerCure causes “balance” issues.

The proper way to deal with caster raises if all 3 were to get them is like BLU, with a slight modification. Change them to an oGCD on a 3 minute cooldown with 0 MP cost and move it to the role actions. This way it's a free raise every 3 minutes that doesn't hurt anyone, but not something anyone can spam. The caster shouldn't have to be penalized to use raise as they sometimes do currently. The penalty for death is already paid with weakness.

Or just don’t add anything and just don’t remove anything.

Seriously this jealousy over what used to be hybrid job historically having a very heavy opportunity costing raise is just laughable.

[Katie_Kitty]

The real problem is that unlimited raising causes serious problems for the encounter designers. It's not obvious unless you've played long enough, but they had to invent the damage down mechanic just to stop straight up killing players for failing mechanics. That wasn't interesting design. It also forces the game to have DPS checks because there's no triage system that collapses a healer's ability to heal, which in turn is why the damage down is so effective.

Actually, unlimited ressing in general basically demands that you kill players for simple mistakes in all forms of content. Contrast this to DRS or BA. No one can res outside of very, very limited tools. It's so limited that you are very unlikely to get more than, say, 20 out of a single group without relying on reraisers instead.

In BA, they were able to make mechanics not give damage downs, and also not straight up kill you most of the time, but still have a rather tense fight. DRS had the system of killing you for repeated mistakes, so you had some wiggle room and most mechanics didn't straight up kill you for failure.

My point is mostly that RDM having a raise isn't as good a mechanic as you think it is, and it does harm encounter design at a technical level. It's in the same boat as, say, every healer having a medica (except scholar, sad) as well as an assize (aoe heal part) and a ton of other aoe heals. At a certain point, you have to design every encounter around the fact that you can 100% top off an entire party from 1 life to full in 2 GCDs and 2 oGCDs between 2 healers, and that likewise harms the variety of what you can do in encounter design.

That said, I'm not strictly advocating for or against it. I can see benefits and drawbacks to both examples. However, at the end of the day, I firmly believe 1 thing. Either every caster gets it, or none of them should have it.

Verraise is not unlimited. You are limited by a very limited MP bar.

[ItMe]

Verraise is not unlimited. You are limited by a very limited MP bar.

Truth.
And youre also limited by RDM's very limited MP restoring tools.
They can burst some rezzes out, but man can just a handful of rezzes really cripple them.

[Taranok]

Verraise is not unlimited. You are limited by a very limited MP bar.

Let me rephrase: "Indefinite" raises. The rest of my point is still very much valid, because even +4 raises before running out is something you have to design encounters around having potentially.

[SaberMaxwell]

I'm not buying that RDM has to be able to raise or its not a jack of all trades. I'm fine enough with it using stone/aero/holy and fire/thunder/flare personally, because in the lore of ffxiv itself both white and black magics are highly destructive when focused toward being destructive. Hence the war. Red Mage is a jack of each discipline it uses: if you cast solely black magic you do basically nothing. If you cast solely white magic you get the same result compared to a white mage. If you cast solely melee you're hilariously weak. "But surely is greater than a master of one" comes in because Red Mage, despite not mastering any of the above three, combines them into a potential art all its own.

If anything the class should look thematically at what it means to be casting white and black magic with one's own aether instead of the environment's, because that is FFXIV's Red Mage, which means more to me than Final Fantasy's Red Mage.

All that pomp aside, I'm indifferent to the raise, leaning toward "dump it" but it's whatever. If SMN loses theirs I'd hope verraise gets a substantial nerf, maybe a 30s cooldown. Maybe dump it in favor of an ogcd medica 2 or something perhaps if the healing aspect must stay.

[SnowVix]

Let me rephrase: "Indefinite" raises. The rest of my point is still very much valid, because even +4 raises before running out is something you have to design encounters around having potentially.

the 25% reduction in damage done for a minute by raised characters (50% if they're raised a second time within that minute) is the balance.

[Taranok]

the 25% reduction in damage done for a minute by raised characters (50% if they're raised a second time within that minute) is the balance.

Yes, but my point is the sheer amount of considerations the encounter designers have to make to allow for what is theoretically indefinite raises in design. I mean, there's a reason DPS checks exist, and the fact that the party is functionally immortal outside of group wipe mechanics is a major part of it.

WoW, in comparison, doesn't have this problem because your DPS check is the healer literally running OOM from trying to keep everyone alive, and when death is as heavily punished, you don't need to kill people left and right for singular mistakes, which opens up encounter design and punishment the tiniest bit. Though this point seems to have completely gone over your head.

That is my entire point.

[Iedarus]

Let me get this straight, Black Mage is Yoshi's golden child yet you believe SE is leaving the job in a ditch? The rezzes don't even come into play assuming everyone (especially the healers) are doing what they're supposed to be doing. Red Mage and Summoner have solo carry potential, sure, but they have to sacrifice a LOT of DPS to do so. In a team that knows what they're doing, Black Mage is always going to be the big dick DPS caster, and Yoshi will ensure it stays that way.

[Rai_Takara]

My only problem with this is he shouldn't say it's a success for balance until we get our hands on the things and test things out.
The playerbase is generally better players than the dev team and they admitted that awhile ago. Hell there's already a rotation for BLM floating around using transpose to skip blizzard 4 cast and mathematically it does more dps than a standard rotation. I doubt they planned for that

Right. He's just saying in the event that it is by the end of expac, basically.

You're talking completely out of your butt with nothing but speculation to back it up. Not once has yoshi ever spoken about removing verraise. it's not on the agenda and there's no indication it's ever been. Sooo. Yeah you're wrong.

That's wishful thinking at best. If you have a pulse on game balance, you can predict what SE will do. Lot of us saw the AST changes in ShB coming, along with enmity changes for tanks, and so forth. There is no way RDM will have the only in battle raise without being neutered (or removed).

No, because in serious content we don't want to be spending our time casting cures. The one we have is for when things turn to absolute shit, or to prime dualcast without a target.

Verraise is actually useful, at keeping your team in the fight. And RDM damage is pretty damn good these days.

I will never understand the player base that wants to take a job that's in a very good spot and shoot it behind the barn.

It can just be an oGCD you weave like most support spells.

RDM is only good right now because it's end of expac so SE has decided it can do as much damage as other casters while bringing utility. They always do this at the end of expacs. However for most of expac, RDM was rightfully punished on damage due to having verraise. It's a lot easier to balance casters to do raid DPS when stuff like raise is homogenized and that's something that'll happen if SMN is losing their raise.

Right, that’s why BLMs are top DPS for caster while RDMs are not even close.

Yes, but why should RDM and SMN be lower in raid contribution. Nobody wants to be a prog only job. Homogenizing caster raise is the next step to finely balance casters so all casters are just as equally useful in prog and out.

You mean, RDM, right? SMN doesn’t have VerRaise.

Yes. RDM, that was a typo.

Shadewalker was an enmity manipulation tool. The whole enmity system changed for ShB. SE didn’t need to keep Shadewalker. What purpose would an enmity manipulation tool when tanks gain enmity and manipulate their own enmity?

You are comparing apples to oranges.

Yes, but that's the point. Shadewalker showed how broken enmity was for tanks who have it versus those who don't. It showed that SE had to redesign enmity from the bottom up.

In this comparison, RDM being the only caster left with raise shows how broken caster raise is, ergo they have to redesign it from the bottom up. Sound familiar?

You cannot replace VerRaise with any cookie cutter white magic skill and assume most people will be fine with it.

I am one of those people who will not be fine with it.

FF14 RDM is the already the least “Red Mage” out of all of the Red Mages in the main series. RDM has been historically a hybrid job and a “jack of all trades.” It didn’t do one thing great, but it could fill in the gaps. That filling in the gaps included raising, healing, and buffing. Based on your party comp, your RDMs were your main healers.

FF14’s RDM lost most of that hybrid capability in order to fit into the Holy Trinity as a DPS. Embolden, VerRaise, VerCure, and that new magicked barrier ability are just the reminders of what RDMs could do in the other games.

Take away VerRaise because it’s not fair the BLM doesn’t have a raise for “balance”, you might as well take away VerCure. I am sure VerCure causes “balance” issues.



Or just don’t add anything and just don’t remove anything.

Seriously this jealousy over what used to be hybrid job historically having a very heavy opportunity costing raise is just laughable.

Balance > Lore. Devs have stated that is the path going forward. Your identity can be maintained with oGCDs and a plethora of niche abilities to satisfy your fantasy. It's clear stuff like VerCure remains for fantasy fluff and is obviously not a balance issue. Do you argue Magick Barrier is not RDM? Should they take it away? Or is it RDM enough for you? In which case, point stands they can add abilities such as those to fill in the gap. Stop fixating on raise. It does not define RDM.

[Taranok]

Let me get this straight, Black Mage is Yoshi's golden child yet you believe SE is leaving the job in a ditch? The rezzes don't even come into play assuming everyone (especially the healers) are doing what they're supposed to be doing. Red Mage and Summoner have solo carry potential, sure, but they have to sacrifice a LOT of DPS to do so. In a team that knows what they're doing, Black Mage is always going to be the big dick DPS caster, and Yoshi will ensure it stays that way.

Ironically the 2 concepts aren't mutually exclusive, but I do find the concept ironic. Personally, I feel BLM is stuck in a state of stagnation akin to MNK, where it works well enough that no one complains loud enough to actually push to get anything truly evolutionary for the class. It being Yoshi's main class could act as an anchor holding the class back, but also preserving what it is in the moment. Hell, the fact that removing enochian as a button was apparently something that had to be heavily discussed when it was an entirely trivial mechanic for anyone not flat out learning the class speaks volumes to just how stagnant the class has fundamentally become, and disconnected development of it is.

Which, strictly speaking, isn't a bad thing as its core rotation is quite fun, but leads to other issues like no one questioning AF/UI timers, or whether all casters as a role action should have resses innately. Quintessential version of: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it, even if a newer model would be a massive improvement over what is slowly turning into a clunker."