Can SQ-EN draw a line in the sand w/ 3rd Parties?

[Nothv13]

In that case, I'd say the advantages do sound unfair but I'm not willing to delve into that debate. I honestly don't care enough about parses to wanna die on this hill.



It still gives you an advantage since a person can get distracted, can panic and forget stuff or mess up, etc. but a program doesn't. No one said Cactbot plays the game for you or makes it so mechanics don't matter or you don't have to pay attention, just that it gives an undeniable advantage by removing the possible human-error factor when it comes to making call-outs.

So it simply does the job of a really good shot caller. The amount of errors I've seen in streams from really good shot callers has been pretty much zero, outside of them trolling. Quite literally you'd have no clue these things existed if someone didn't bring them up every now and then. I would in no way call that harmful particularly since SE's line has been harassment and forced use of these addons. As long as they actually stick with that the harm is virtually nothing.

[LittleImp]

So it simply does the job of a really good shot caller.

This has explained ~5 times previously in this thread, but here's a summation of the points of why comparing Cactbot to a human shot-caller is incredibly disingenuous:

Cactbot can :
- Make eight, individual, unique callouts to eight different people simultaneously and instantly.
- React with what is effectively a 0ms delay to mechanics
- Accurately call certain mechanics that haven't even been telegraphed on the client yet.
- Show a graphical list with exact countdowns to upcoming mechanics.
- Never make a single mistake while doing all of this.


How does it do all of this?

By invasively reading obfuscated game-data directly out of memory, or via intercepting network traffic.

[Nothv13]

This has explained ~5 times previously in this thread, but here's a summation of the points of why comparing Cactbot to a human shot-caller is incredibly disingenuous:

Cactbot can :
- Make eight, individual, unique callouts to eight different people simultaneously and instantly.
- React with what is effectively a 0ms delay to mechanics
- Accurately call certain mechanics that haven't even been telegraphed on the client yet.
- Show a graphical list with exact countdowns to upcoming mechanics.
- Never make a single mistake while doing all of this.


How does it do all of this?

By invasively reading obfuscated game-data directly out of memory, or via intercepting network traffic.

And you still wouldn't have any idea it existed if someone didn't see it. ACT has been around in FFXIV for 8 years, Cactbot for 4 years (2 expansions) so they are in no way new or something that has effected the game in some insidious negative way when it comes to the way people enjoy the game. No fights are made with it in mind. It is not updated fast enough to make a difference in world firsts. Anyone that requires it can be banned. Anyone that uses functions of it to harass someone can be banned. Get back to me when they start designing the game around it and they start caring about the race for world first.

[Saraide]

Except they're not. In Cactbot's case, it's a program and not a person doing the callouts. Discord or any means of communication doesn't do stuff for you. That was the whole point discussed in the thread. We're not discussing in-game stuff vs. all 3rd-party stuff. The conversation somehow got derailed and went there, but that wasn't the initial point discussed. At least I didn't see it that way.

Who do you think sets cactbot triggers? Some deep learning AI? It's not derailing the thread, it's the logical conclusion to the question asked in the title of the thread. A silly title I might add because the line has been drawn long ago: You're not allowed to harass people. As long as you dont cross that line, you're reasonably safe in your tools usage as it's a completely futile effort to go after people who use ACT for seeing where they can improve their damage or for people modding their UI. From getting banned atleast, if another player doesnt value your ulti clear because they know you used cactbot then that's something you have to deal with.

We have to distinguish between two perspectives here, the player's perspective and the dev's perspective. The devs simply do not want you to harass other players while in the eyes of a player cactbot clears are worth far less than clears without it. The simple solution to that would be to stop treating people with ulti clears like some sort of nobility, they are just players who spent a lot of time learning if they do it legit. Literally anyone can clear ultis with enough time and effort. And if they didnt spend enough time learning then that will become obvious quite quickly (and with that I dont just mean laughing at the ultimate legend because they mess up a single mechanic in a roulette or something).

These two things aren't comparable.

Those are just technical differences, they are still both third party tools so they are very much comparable because they allow you to do things outside of what the ingame tools provide. The only difference that matters is that discord vastly enhances the game while all cactbot manages to do is to not do any harm. I wouldnt be sad if cactbot just vanished on the spot. I would however mind if the devs started to spend a lot of wasted effort to sledgehammer away every truly useful tool just so that one tool that everyone looks down on anyway gets axe'd.

[StriderShinryu]

The biggest issue this thread is bringing forward is that the extended and continued use of 3rd party tools and software is going to cause a shift in both how the average player approaches the game as well as how the developers themselves design the game and the content therein. The arguments over what exactly counts as a 3rd party tool or an invasive tool really is besides the point and just has everyone arguing around in circles and eternally moving goalposts.

The fact is we have already had the developers adjust the way the game functions in direct response to what a 3rd party tool allowed the users to do in the removal of being able to place markers during a fight. The more invasive and pervasive the use of 3rd party tools becomes, the more likely that's going to have to be the case, or the devs are basically just going to have to throw their hands up and let everything go.

[Nethereal]

Those are just technical differences, they are still both third party tools so they are very much comparable because they allow you to do things outside of what the ingame tools provide.

Except one requires normally inaccessible data from the game to function the other is a completely different tool that functions exclusively by itself. You're reaching too hard.

It's also extremely telling anyone thinks voice chat can somehow be related to a third party program in the context of this discussion.
Computers are not immovable sentries that require a bulldozer to excavate once installed they can be moved, they can be next to each other, people can talk to each other while on computers directly parallel to them.
All voice chat programs have done is make the internet cafe culture easily accessible to the entire world, there's no comparison.

Side note: The below statement is simply not true.

Literally anyone can clear ultis with enough time and effort.

Also: The simple solution is to just not harass people. Not sure why you don't like legends.

The simple solution to that would be to stop treating people with ulti clears like some sort of nobility

[Saraide]

Except one requires normally inaccessible data from the game to function the other is a completely different tool that functions exclusively by itself. You're reaching too hard.

It's also extremely telling anyone thinks voice chat can somehow be related to a third party program in the context of this discussion.
Computers are not immovable sentries that require a bulldozer to excavate once installed they can be moved, they can be next to each other, people can talk to each other while on computers directly parallel to them.
All voice chat programs have done is make the internet cafe culture easily accessible to the entire world, there's no comparison.

Side note: The below statement is simply not true.


Also: The simple solution is to just not harass people. Not sure why you don't like legends.

Literally never said I dont like legends. I would have you treat them as the normal people that they are instead there being some uncloseable gap. But please tell me who cannot clear ultimate and why.

Of course voice communication over discord is using a third party tool or do you mean to tell me discord is built into the game? The technical aspects of a tool are not important, what matters is what they allow you to do. Discord as third party tool was literally brought up by yoship exactly because drawing a 0 tolerance line like some people in this thread suggest is futile. As futile as selectively treating some third party tools not as third party tools and then fear mongering with how evil the rest of them are and how the game will now suddenly but surely die.

The game is simply not built to require the use of cactbot. And that makes literally all the difference here. Because it is not required and not designed around, you will have enough time recognizing what to do if you properly learn the fight. Extra time recognizing what to do is useless once you've already seen through the mechanic. All cactbot does is cheat the learning progress, it does not provide you an advantage over someone being good at the game.

[Sotaris]

Technically people are not incorrect stating Logitech, iCue, Razor etc programs, discord, mmo mouses etc etc is against the whole 3rd party not allowed, but it's getting quite ridiculous and extreamly amusing to read you fight over it, go on.

[Eien713]

Who do you think sets cactbot triggers? Some deep learning AI?

I'm starting to doubt your reading comprehension skills as this was not remotely implied in any of my posts.

[Saraide]

I'm starting to doubt your reading comprehension skills as this was not remotely implied in any of my posts.

Well you said callouts are done via a programm, not a person, but that's not entirely correct. Admittably a bit of a cheeky remark but someone (a person) has to set up those triggers for the callouts. Dont get hung up on that.