The questions I want EW to answer the most: WHY and HOW was the world sundered?

[Mansion]

After which, he outright saves WoL's life against Elidibus

Out of topic a bit but, is that canon ? if so, how does it work?

I didn't read that cutscene at face value; for me it was more a poetic (fan-service even) representation of Elidibus understanding Emet had planned the whole reveal about Azem and Azem's power to us. But I didn't see it as Emet actually being there to do this.

But if it is true, then how could Emet just... save us, (let alone manifest) in the world when we have killed him and returned his soul to the Aethereal sea?

[Geriel]

Out of topic a bit but, is that canon ? if so, how does it work?

I didn't read that cutscene at face value; for me it was more a poetic (fan-service even) representation of Elidibus understanding Emet had planned the whole reveal about Azem and Azem's power to us. But I didn't see it as Emet actually being there to do this.

But if it is true, then how could Emet just... save us, (let alone manifest) in the world when we have killed him and returned his soul to the Aethereal sea?

I believe the end of the story Ere Our Curtain Falls explains it. After the big fight, Emet was 'on the brink of death' when he gets the call from the WoL. He used what little strength he had left to save them.

[Cilia]

Russell's teapot - "You can't disprove [X], therefore it must be true."

That it can't be disproven the PC is tempered doesn't mean they are, and (by my reckoning at any rate) there's much more evidence against that being the case than for it.

That's not to say Hydaelyn can't or doesn't temper people (pretty sure it was part of that whole "Word of the Mother" deal she put Minfilia through), but I personally haven't seen anything suggesting that's the case with the PC.

[Kesey]

Again; it's not possible that she has. Even if you dismiss that Ifrit directly clarified this exact point back in ARR, you then need to acknowledge 'why would the Ascians not use this information against us', because they would also know exactly that, and Emet-Selch and Elidibus had every reason to crack it out if it were true, so we can reason that it's not. And even if you dismiss that, you then need to acknowledge that the Scions have exactly the same information as we do, and still never bring it up, almost as if it's not a conclusion that reasonably educated and trustworthy people in-universe would think is credible.

And if you dismiss THAT... who do you want to hear from to believe this? Because I feel like you wouldn't believe Hydaelyn herself, and yet that's basically the only higher authority left to hear from on this.

But, again: there's nothing saying she can't temper us, just that she hasn't.

I'm not so sure. Especially if they still have freedom of choice. The Ascian who has been temepered to Zodiark snaps back with you are tempered to Hydaelyn and can't trust her. But the immediate response is but it protects me from your brainwashing, and other primal tempering and she refuses to control my decisions, guess she can still be trusted more than you. These are not great points of manipulation.

Honestly, give the villains and the writing a little more credit then this.

[Cleretic]

I'm not so sure. Especially if they still have freedom of choice. The Ascian who has been temepered to Zodiark snaps back with you are tempered to Hydaelyn and can't trust her. But the immediate response is but it protects me from your brainwashing, and other primal tempering and she refuses to control my decisions, guess she can still be trusted more than you. These are not great points of manipulation.

Honestly, give the villains and the writing a little more credit then this.

I am.

Emet-Selch is a man who desperately wanted us to understand and agree with him and his (terrible, awful, no-good) point of view. If this is true, he would have had the intelligence to recognize it, and would have raised it just as he got to divulge the information that Hydaelyn is a primal. Remember that he's the one that tells us that the Ascians are tempered. He really tries to push the notion that we're not so different and would make the same choices; he would have had every good reason to bring it up, and no good reason not to. Similar with Elidibus, except with him the similarities come from a slightly different direction. And in both cases we have reason to believe it would have shaken them, because the Scions are not perfect unfeeling hyper-rational robot people; they were shaken by the news Hydaelyn is a primal, remember, so they would have similarly been shaken by the notion that the WoL has been tempered by her.

I would also point out that Fandaniel knows and has had ample opportunity to break our brains with the reveal, but unlike the other two, we don't really have a full grasp on his M.O. or his views on us. So while we can reasonably say that he would have the capacity to say it, we can't say he would have wanted to just yet.

You say I should 'give more credit than that', but... honestly, I can say the same of you. I'm in my position because I've given the writers the credit to have laid down proper information and not contradicted it over eight years, and for them to have written smart, realistic characters that would A: notice something like this, B: recognize its ramifications, and C: do something about it. I trust them to be intelligent people who wrote intelligent characters, and intelligent characters, if this was even remotely true, would have noticed.

Give the heroes and the writing a little more credit than you are.

And incidentally... what do you want this hypothetical reveal to do? Because you've just said that you believe that they would immediately have a completely unphased response of 'yeah but I'm 100% fine so nyah'. In your mind, the characters apparently wouldn't be affected whatsoever by this twist, so... what difference would it even make? Why root for a 'twist' that apparently changes nothing about nobody?

[Mansion]

I believe the end of the story Ere Our Curtain Falls explains it. After the big fight, Emet was 'on the brink of death' when he gets the call from the WoL. He used what little strength he had left to save them.

Thanks ! I read it now. I'm still unsure it's that explicit but it sure helps understanding things better

[Lauront]

He should be one of the most powerful creatures on the planet. I don't see why he couldn't.

Moreover, if she is setting up that aspect of tempering that relates to an energy or elemental link to the Primal, I see zero reason why a dragon on the order of power of Midgardsormr (also affiliated with her) couldn't suppress such a link so that the blessed stops drawing on the Primal, albeit temporarily.

First, he doesn't simply kill everybody from the very start. He could have just allied with Vauthry and had the Sin Eaters swarm over Lakeland and slaughter everyone, and at many points throughout the expansion he has opportunities to do as he pleases on such a front. Moreso, he goes as far as to save Y'shtola, an enemy, for really no gain on his own part. He reveals the history of the Final Days and the Sundering and the true nature of Hydaelyn and Zodiark as primals, all things which could be dangerous to reveal for Zodiark. He allows WoL to absorb the Light without knowing whether or not it would be contained, throwing the entire rejoining of the First into jeopardy. He creates the entire plan with the Azem stone in preparation for his own defeat, and when confronting WoL never retreats when he easily could have done so, endangering the entire Ascian cause through his own death. After which, he outright saves WoL's life against Elidibus, causing his downfall and all but ending the Ascians as an organization.

None of this is advancing Zodiark's will, if anything it's actively harmful.

Correct. There's further nuances to it, in that alone among the unsundered trio, he focused heavily on preserving his memory and identity (and we also know by cross-referencing Elidibus's final lines - FR in particular, copied below - and his short story that, even after the tempering, the Convocation disagreed on some matters, hence he returned to mediate.) The self-same memories and identity that came flooding back to Tiamat as her tempering withered. If it can go on one direction, it may well flow in the other too, i.e. preservation of memory serves so as to shield from that loss of identity. There are several elements to tempering besides (intent of the summon/the nature of the primal, the primal's intent, relative power of the summoners etc.) which all influence how tempering manifests and to me writing in this flexibility leaves open the possibility of using it with Hydaelyn much as they have with Zodiark and Bahamut.

Elidibus : Oh, je me souviens, maintenant... Mes amis... je voulais les aider... leur apporter la salvation en devenant Zordiarche... Mais ça ne suffit pas à faire cesser leurs lamentations…
= “Oh, I remember, now… My friends… I wanted to help them… bring them salvation by becoming Zodiark… But that was not enough to stop their lamentations…”


Elidibus : Le Concile avait perdu sa cohésion... Face à l'anéantissement, les avis divergeaient sur la marche à suivre pour sauver notre planète…
= “The Council had lost its cohesion… Faced with annihilation, opinions differed on the way forward to save our planet…”

Elidibus : Ça ne leur ressemblait pas... Plus que jamais, ils avaient besoin d'Elidibus... Ils avaient besoin de moi... Alors, je me suis détaché de Zordiarche pour voler à leur secours...
= “It wasn’t like them… More than ever, they needed Elidibus… They needed me… So, I broke away from Zodiark to come to their aid…”


Elidibus : C'est ça... Chacun d'eux, je les aimais plus que tout... !
= “That’s it… Each of them, I loved them more than anything…!”

Elidibus : J'espérais qu'en accomplissant mon devoir, je pourrais à nouveau les voir souriants et heureux... !
= “I hoped that by accomplishing my duty, I could see them smiling and happy again…!”

Elidibus : Je devais partir en dernier... Comment aurais-je pu abandonner mes amis, esseulés en ce bas monde ?
= “I should have left last… How could I have abandoned my friends, alone(forsaken) in this world?”

The issue is, it would matter if suddenly we came to a moment where her will and ours were in contradiction. This isn't something that can be dismissed out of hand, WoL themselves has a serious complex over it.


As others have said, that didn't help the Convocation.

Indeed. Let's not underestimate the possibility of a plot thread similar to Yunalesca's, where she is insistent that her method is followed.

There's no evidence for Y'shtola or any of the Scions being able to sense tempering. So far as I can recall she never says anything about Emet being tempered despite having seen him, none of the Scions are able to use their goggles to discern that there are tempered in the Ala Mhigan ranks or whether or not Ga Bu was truly tempered, and Y'shtola's aethervision clearly isn't so acute that she can tell whether somebody is an Ascian, a disembodied soul possessing a body, or even if someone is themselves a primal. Basically, if WoL was tempered, there's no way for anybody to be able to tell.

We are also dealing with the fact that the Scions are only now processing the true nature of tempering. What was it Elidibus said about perception?

"Knowledge dictates expectation, and expectation colors perception. Thus did she perceive naught."

The Blessing even functions so as to deliver a similar outcome to tempering, in that the aim of tempering for the tempered (as per Emet-Selch) is to spread the primal's energy or element. Likewise, what did a profusion of crystals of light achieve on the First? The question that should be asked is can a Primal empower a non-tempered individual, or do they need to create some kind of link with them in order to allow energy to flow between the two? Emet-Selch very much describes tempering as just such a network and it is very probable that this is the link that allows e.g. Elidibus to sense if the others are still around.

We don't know the answer to this, so it is folly to try dismiss the possibility out of hand.

I also know Ifrit is frequently brought up as the basis of doing so, but Garuda had a different view on it:

That foul stench...I see now! She has touched you!

Ifrit may just lack the sophistication or power to see it. Lakshmi also complains of her foe's souls being "stained".

Exactly.

Minfilia (Word of the Mother) basically tells you that the Blessing of Light is just a nice way of saying 'tempered minion'.

"As the Ascians must serve as instruments of Zodiark's will, so too must others carry out the will of Hydaelyn."

Her lines in the French version are even suggestive of her own tempering:

Messagère d'Hydaelyn : Au milieu des cris de nos camarades happés par le sort interdit, je me suis laissé absorber à mon tour par le flux éthéré. Lorsque j'ai repris conscience, je nageais dans la mer des étoiles.
= “In the midst of the cries of our comrades caught by the forbidden spell, I let myself be absorbed in turn by the aetherial flow. Once I regained consciousness, I was swimming in the sea of stars (aetherial sea).”

Messagère d'Hydaelyn : Tout à coup, j'ai réalisé que la douce voix d'Hydaelyn était de plus en plus lointaine. J'avais tellement peur de la perdre que mon seul désir devint de me fondre en elle pour que nous soyons unies à jamais.
= “All of a sudden, I realized that the soft voice of Hydaelyn was becoming more and more distant. I was so scared to lose it that my sole desire was to melt into her so that we would be united forever.”

Messagère d'Hydaelyn : C'est ainsi que je suis devenue sa messagère. La planète s'exprime à travers moi, et cette voix que tu écoutes est la sienne. Tu es celui que notre Mère a choisi pour recueillir la vérité de ce monde.
= “It is then that I became her messenger. The planet speaks through me, and the voice that you hear now is its own. You are the one that our Mother has chosen to obtain the truth of this world.”

[vormela]

I guess what matters is what we would do differently if it turns out we were tempered. Or what we would perceive differently. Some people would see that as a "retcon" if for example some people in our visions really didn't say the actual things we heard/remember them saying.

For example... we may not have taken G'raha Tia's vision for granted (similar to Y'shtola's distrust of him). Both he and Emet-Selch presented us with their visions of the ends of days (G'raha's was just relayed to us through Urianger who believed him for reasons that could be adjacent to tempering...a kindship through the quest for knowledge though we don't know for what end and won't until Endwalker...and before this, the Gerun Oracles thing, which I still don't understand).

As for not giving the convocation enough credit, Emet-Selch doesn't recognize or consider the Exarch "knowable," at least in the English translation, until he found out they were fighting over what was essentially the same deity to suit the needs of their duties. The Venat people met seemingly in secret while the Zodiark people were a government entity as far as we can tell and worked in the capital building. So maybe they really didn't know how indoctrination worked for the other group. Kind of like...do we know how Ascians happened? They have no shadow and live forever (but not really), and we don't know if all of them are Zodiark people or not. Why are they branded on their face? Who exactly approaches and coronates the new members? Who were the original Emet-Selch and Elidibus and the other members and how did these younger people get caught up in this thing (because the originals aren't even really the originals...)? We don't know the extent of their tempering because we haven't met an untempered one yet (well, maybe Fandaniel). Wouldn't that kind of stuff be what we are going to their moon base to find out?

Throwing out tempering as just not possible is understandable because it could be seen as a "retcon" but is it really though? Is that why it upsets people so much? Wouldn't we see Garlemald in a new light once we became untempered and have more sympathy for the people there?

I have been back and forth on whether we are tempered and whether it even matters, so I'm not trying to be condescending. It is really saying something that the cure to tempering is "flying pigs." (As in, "when pigs can fly." Canonically, they smell like sausage. This is one lore fact I know.)

I appreciate people who can compile the lore because I am too scatterbrained. We need a Librarians and Historians of Eorzea Day sometime soon.

[Cilia]

The Venat people met seemingly in secret while the Zodiark people were a government entity as far as we can tell and worked in the capital building. So maybe they really didn't know how indoctrination worked for the other group. Kind of like...do we know how Ascians happened? They have no shadow and live forever (but not really), and we don't know if all of them are Zodiark people or not. Why are they branded on their face? Who exactly approaches and coronates the new members? Who were the original Emet-Selch and Elidibus and the other members and how did these younger people get caught up in this thing (because the originals aren't even really the originals...)? We don't know the extent of their tempering because we haven't met an untempered one yet (well, maybe Fandaniel). Wouldn't that kind of stuff be what we are going to their moon base to find out?

Throwing out tempering as just not possible is understandable because it could be seen as a "retcon" but is it really though? Is that why it upsets people so much? Wouldn't we see Garlemald in a new light once we became untempered and have more sympathy for the people there?

This is a lot to get through.

-It's not clear whether or not Venat's group was aware of tempering. The only hint we have in regards to that is one of them describing the Convocation as "stubborn," which could be due to tempering or simply because it's how they were even before the advent of Zodiark.

-"Ascian" is just a label applied to the three unsundered survivors of the Sundering, as well as the soul fragments of their cohorts they raised up to their former stations via memory crystals.

-The Ascians not having a shadow was dropped from 1.0 - 2.0. While the Ancients they technically are did have greater lifespans than the contemporary races living on the Source and shards, it wasn't infinite - according to Emet-Selch they "only" "lived for an age," and the short story "Ere Our Curtain Falls" makes it eminently clear that without memory crystals of their own the unsundered would have lost their memories and identities long ago (thus implying they've extended their lives far beyond what would be natural).

-All three unsundered were, in theory, tempered by Zodiark, though this gets a little fuzzy. Emet-Selch admits he was, but Lahabrea showed signs of defiance or at least pursuing his agenda over that of Zodiark ("By my will..." in regards to his actions in Ishgard). Elidibus is a tiny piece of Zodiark himself, so being tempered by the same is... probably not possible, but he is still bound to carry out the purpose for which Zodiark was summoned. Given the sundered Ascians are elevated, reborn fragments of former Convocation seat holders, they would have been through the Lifestream to cleanse them of tempering... and it's also mentioned by Emet-Selch that unrelated people can be raised up, so how tempered they are (if at all) is very questionable.

-The Ascian glyphs that show up when they're exercising their full powers are believed to be a sort of "badge of office." Each one is unique, and is derived from a flipped fragment of the Ascian's corresponding Esper's glyph from Final Fantasy XII (except Azem's, of course, since the PC never manifests theirs; Azem's glyph does show up in the sun-pattered summoning circle used before and during the fight with Warrior of Light Elidibus though).

-Based on "Through His Eyes" and "Ere Our Curtain Falls," Convocation seat holders were chosen through some sort of council - perhaps the current seated members of the Convocation themselves. The current Convocation - known as the Ascians - is comprised of the three Unsundered (Lahabrea, Elidibus, and Emet-Selch) who seek out the sundered soul fragments of their former cohorts across the shards and elevate them to their former station with crystals containing their memories of those shards' past selves. Though, they don't actually need sundered soul shards of former Convocation seat holders - anyone will do, though they prefer the former since that makes them more devoted to the cause.

-We don't know how severe the tempering of the Convocation members is - see above - but according to Emet-Selch he and the others "exist[ed] only to bring about the rule of Dark and Zodiark's supremacy," though they do seem to have maintained a good degree of personal agency. Make of that what you will.

-Nobody's really sure what's up on the moon. The only thing we know for sure is that it's got some Allagan crap on it, an Ancient outpost (Mare Lamentorum), and according to Hydaelyn is Zodiark's prison.

I can't speak for anyone else but I don't think it's impossible for the PC to have been tempered by Hydaelyn, just very very unlikely because we've seen no evidence that's the case other than Hydaelyn giving a falsified account on the origin of her conflict with Zodiark (and the "correct" account actually is a retcon, given the writers of 3.2 didn't seem to know how they wanted the Zodiark/Ascian storyline to play out). My issue is that the whole train of thought seems designed to play into the "Hydaelyn is a primal, all primals are bad, therefore we must kill Hydaelyn" narrative... certain people... want to see play out, even though we've known since, what, 2.3 that not all primals behave in accordance with the general rules laid out by the Scions during 2.0's rundown of how they operate. Further as illustrated elsewhere it's essentially a nonissue - tempering or no the PC would still do the same things they're doing because it's who they are down to their soul, so the whole "we're just Hydaelyn's tempered mind-slaves" shtick feels... disingenuous at this point.

How sympathetic the PC is in regards to Garlemald is largely dependent on how sympathetic the player is to Garlemald; I can't speak for anyone else but while I sympathize with their plight (more on the whole "they were deceived into becoming agents of chaos" than "they had natural disadvantages and were pushed to inhospitable territory" front), I don't feel the latter excuses (let alone justifies) their more egregious offenses toward the rest of the peoples of the (known) world, and is the argument made much more often.

[Vyrerus]

FFXIV starts with a supernatural vision.


When we finish character creation, our character floats down through what appears to be the Aetherial Sea. We hold our face, as though in pain, a gesture we later find to be an Echo vision symptom. We hear Hydaelyn for the first time, and we see a light reminiscent of the sun. We approach it, only for a rift portal to materialize Lahabrea, who merely stands there. The Light then effortlessly bypasses him, and shines down upon us, changing from a warm orange-yellow to a bright white-blue, covering us in its light, causing an aura to burst forth around us as blue white flame. It covers us in our chosen profession's artifact armor, and arms us with a weapon of light. We gesture towards Lahabrea in an offensive posture. Only then does Lahabrea become hostile, flying forward to face us unarmed. Everything flashes to white, and then fades to black. We awaken to the merchant in the carriage/ferry worrying over whether we have Aether Sickness or not.

In the next sequence where we are brought on a soul level face to face with Hydaelyn, The Mothercrystal. She beseeches us to deliver the realm from darkness, to seek out Crystals of Light, and also refers to us as, "My Child."

Ifrit's whole line in response to our not being Tempered by his flames.

IFRIT: "Forsooth, thy frail mortal frame can serve as vessel to the blessing of but One. Yet I smell not the taint of another upon thee... The truth of thy allegiance waxeth clear--thou art of the godless blessed's number. The Paragons warned of thine abhorrent kind. Thine existence is not to be suffered.

This implied that Ifrit did not know the truth about us, but was fed false information by the Ascians, who do not view Hydaelyn as a Goddess, only as a blight. It could have also been the Echo, a more likely supposition by some. Keep in mind though, this is also a very weak version of Ifrit, too. He might not have his proper powers of detection.

Off Topic Note: The Crystal of Light platform has light and dark arrows with a CoL at each point, much like the elemental polarity charts we see later in the game.

Titan refers to the Kobolds as, "my children." He goes on to call you a Godless overdweller, references Ifrit, but makes no mention of the Ascians. Though it's safe to assume his knowledge was granted to him by them, too.

Garuda refers to the Ixal as her children. She goes into shrieking about why and how and what are we? Then comes the line someone already reference, "That foul stench... I see now... She has touched you!"

Our next communicae with Hydaeyn comes in the midst of the battle against Ultima Weapon.

HYDAELYN: "Hearken unto me, crystal bearer. They foe is Darkness clad in steel. If thou wouldst triumph, thou must look to the Light."

Hydaelyn proceeds to intervene in the fight directly by using what we now know as the Power of Enervation to rend the Primals from the Ultima Weapon.

Ultima happens, such devastation something something not intent.

HYDAELYN: "I have not the strength to shield thee again... Permit not the manifestation of that vile magick, lest Darkness prevail!"

Something something, someone needs to get Hydaelyn a dictionary. Nothing Lahabrea said was subtle etc. We free Thancred.

HYDAELYN: "Hear... Feel... Think... Warrior of Light Beloved son. The Darkness hath fled before the unclosed brilliance of thy spirit. Yet it lingereth still beyond the sight of men, in forgotten corners of the world. In the depths of the abyss resideth the Dark One, watchful ever. Till this evil be cast out, never shall the world know aught but a passing peace. Yet for the present a gentle light shineth o'er the realm of Eorzea. With thee at its heart. From sparkling mote shall it swell to glorious sun, and all the world shall bask in its warmth.

Hydaelyn then begins to cast the WoL out of the Aetherial Sea. The WoL stretches out their hand in alarm, not wanting to part from Hydaelyn.

"Blessings and joy upon thee. Go forth, my child, and be as a beacon of hope for Eorzea and the lands beyond, through all the days of thy life."

The Scions and GC Leaders are worrying. Minfilia prays to Hydaelyn.

MINFILIA: "Please, Mother Hydaelyn. Please light his way through the darkness..."

HYDAELYN: "Look into the Light, my child. If thou wouldst see thy companions returned safe to thee, reach out to them now."

After the yeehaw and hoohahs and the credits we get a vision of the Mothercrystal, except it's purple and dark. It nor we speak.

So I think it's safe to say that ARR did a good job at keeping our Tempering status murky with a lean towards the WoL is indeed tempered. Even a little smattering of a hint that the Ascians/Zodiark tried to reach out to us too, but they failed.

Heavensward keeps it murky by using Minfilia as a mouthpiece, wherein she speaks once to us under Hydaelyn's Will and Shackles, and then later with the WoDs as herself, "Set free, because Hydaelyn was finally strong enough to let her go." Ardbert can swing his axe at her, also for murky reasons, because she is not possessed by Hydaelyn at the time. When she uses the power bequeathed to her by Hydaelyn, she stops him effortlessly. Kind of a toss up on his tempering status though, because he is known to have taken his own life, but did so under Ascian auspices and lived on in the state, "Beyond Death."

Stormblood doesn't focus very much at all on Hydaelyn or Zodiark. Merely on the Echo and its relationship to Tempering. Further casting more murk into the marsh we're knee deep in now. It showcases that through the Echo, we could bend Primals' will to our own, if our will is strong enough.

Shadowbringers evinces the fact that Hydaelyn and Zodiark are primals in concrete. An upsetting moment for some. I think they didn't continue the onslaught with outright statement that we are Tempered, but they did beg the question a little more. There haven't been too many big twists in the game as I recall it, and I think they limit themselves to only one or two per storyline so that the focus doesn't shift too much away from the characters.

So I still say it could go either way, but from my perspective the Tempering status of the WoL leans towards, "Yeah, they are man."