The questions I want EW to answer the most: WHY and HOW was the world sundered?

[Veloran]

How did we not see that we were tempered after we had the Blessing removed?

How are you supposed to know if it's so subtle?

Then you also have the Warriors of Darkness and Cylva who all had Blessings of Light and all joined the Ascians to fight against Hydaelyn, in addition to Saint Ajora who also had the Blessing and summoned an extremely evil entity to the planet that nuked a whole city and threatened to corrupt Hydaelyn herself.

Emet-Selch effectively worked against the interests of Zodiark in Shadowbringers, so if Hydaelyn's tempering is the same why would her champions not be able to? It seems to me that she needs to actively go out of her way to control somebody.

People have brought up Minfilia stopping Ardbert before in these forums and that's a very weak argument for his being tempered when all that happens is that she stops him so she can explain herself to him and then he gives up. If he were tempered, then she wouldn't explain herself after.

The explanation she gives is "like the Ascians and Zodiark, some people need to serve me as well".

As for Minfilia, she doesn't even have the Blessing of Light, so you can't really consider her actions to be a result of being tempered.

The interplay between the Blessing and the Echo, especially that early in the game, it poorly expounded upon at best. Minfilia didn't have a crystal and wasn't a Warrior of Light - However, she was chosen as the Oracle of Light.

The question of WoL's relationship to Hydaelyn and potential tempering keeps being brought up, so I highly doubt this is an issue that is just going to be ignored or sidestepped in Endwalker.

[MikkoAkure]

Again, how did Midgardsormr blow away our Blessing of Light just like that if it's our being tempered?

Also, at what point of Shadowbringers before we blasted Emet-Selch away did he work against the interest of Zodiark? Everything he was doing was trying to bring the First closer to ruin in order to bring a Calamity and in one timeline where we weren't present, he succeeded. Since he's got the ability to see people's aether, he could have also at any point of time just casually dropped that we were tempered by Hydaelyn in order to mess us up but he never did and spent the entire first part of the expansion trying to schmooze with us and convince us, or at least any part of Azem inside us that he's right. Why would he even try if he could tell we were tempered?

Also, to be tempered you need to be in the presence of the primal. Venat and her crowd weren't tempered by Zodiark at the time he was the Will of the Star, why would Hydaelyn be any different, especially when she's weaker? We're not face to face with her outside of visions until late in Heavensward, which would invalidate any examples of so-called tempering before that event. And if she could temper people remotely, then why doesn't she give everyone on the entire planet low-level tempering? That would prevent literally every single Calamity that has ever happened if she says "free will for all, except in case of emergencies".

Tempering itself is a very weak narrative tool that already had its moment in the story in ARR and now it's being invalidated with the events of Shadowbringers anyway. I don't see any support for us being tempered beyond suppositions or misunderstandings.

[Cilia]

The issue of the PC's potential tempering actually is addressed in a fireside chat with Ardbert('s spirit) during the Shadowbringers MSQ; he says it doesn't much matter since we'd be doing more or less the same things anyway.

Hydaelyn's blessing could be considered tempering, but if it is it's more of a placebo type of deal that doesn't appear to do much of anything other than prevent other primals from claiming our soul. Even that much is in question, given it's the Echo that prevents our tempering, not Hydaelyn's blessing - and we had the Echo before even a fraction of the blessing, so logically speaking we can't be tempered. (Except maybe by massive effort from an unfathomably powerful primal. Even Shinryu couldn't do it.)

The PC doesn't do good because they are compelled by Hydaelyn, the do so because it's who they are down to their very soul.

If we were tempered, an Angelo treatment would cure it; but nobody ever sees any sort of corruption, not even Y'shtola with her aethersense (after the Lightwardens' corruption is cleansed following the showdown with Hades). Besides which, if we were tempered, would we be able (or have to) question whether or not that's the case?

[Kesey]

Everything we know thus far is suggesting that the "dreamer" is Anima and it being described as a being of pure agony further suggests it's most likely just a primal summoned through circumstances similar to Shinryu; that is, an extremely powerful catalyst and tons of aether and emotion from sacrifices knowing or otherwise.

With all the fighting going on in the capital and the different Garlean factions fervently desiring to perpetuate Garlemald in their own way, the former may have been all that was needed to kickstart a summoning ritual.

This with the added threat catalyst that it will be controlled by Zenos.

[KageTokage]

What's pointing at that being Anima, if 'everything' is saying that? Because all I really know we have on Anima is 'she's coming and she's angry', which doesn't tell us much (and in fact, that second part isn't even news when talking about Anima). There's nothing to really relate her to being 'the dreamer', which we also know very little about, beyond 'presumably sleeping'.

Personally I've been assuming 'the dreamer' is just a poetic term Zenos and possibly Fantastic Daniel are using to refer to Zodiark. Who's not easily described with English terminology in his current state, but yeah, I wouldn't deny the reading of 'sleeping'.

There's little doubt that there's some kind of primal lurking in Garlemald between the whole tower situation and that unsettling roar (Which was mentioned as being the only thing the victims of the tower tempering could recall).

We know that the "gate of the gods" requires a heavy amount of resources to be opened (Which lines up with how the towers are siphoning aether out of the environment as well as their prisoners), and the dreamer is somehow involved in this process.

The nickname of "the dreamer" also fits rather cleanly with Anima's original role in FF X as the summoned form of the one of the fayths whose dream sustains Spira's self-destructive cycle of pilgrimage and sacrifice.

[Kesey]

The issue of the PC's potential tempering actually is addressed in a fireside chat with Ardbert('s spirit) during the Shadowbringers MSQ; he says it doesn't much matter since we'd be doing more or less the same things anyway.

Hydaelyn's blessing could be considered tempering, but if it is it's more of a placebo type of deal that doesn't appear to do much of anything other than prevent other primals from claiming our soul. Even that much is in question, given it's the Echo that prevents our tempering, not Hydaelyn's blessing - and we had the Echo before even a fraction of the blessing, so logically speaking we can't be tempered. (Except maybe by massive effort from an unfathomably powerful primal. Even Shinryu couldn't do it.)

The PC doesn't do good because they are compelled by Hydaelyn, the do so because it's who they are down to their very soul.

If we were tempered, an Angelo treatment would cure it; but nobody ever sees any sort of corruption, not even Y'shtola with her aethersense (after the Lightwardens' corruption is cleansed following the showdown with Hades). Besides which, if we were tempered, would we be able (or have to) question whether or not that's the case?

I see what you're saying, but issue at hand is the Ascians have claimed to have been tempered by Zodiark. So if Zodiark can temper them and they have the echo, it's possible that Hydaelyn has tempered the WOL. Even if it isn't to control them and allows them to think freely but at the same time protect them from other primals. Hopefully this is fully clarified in Endwalker.

[Cleretic]

I see what you're saying, but issue at hand is the Ascians have claimed to have been tempered by Zodiark. So if Zodiark can temper them and they have the echo, it's possible that Hydaelyn has tempered the WOL. Even if it isn't to control them and allows them to think freely but at the same time protect them from other primals. Hopefully this is fully clarified in Endwalker.

Again; it's not possible that she has. Even if you dismiss that Ifrit directly clarified this exact point back in ARR, you then need to acknowledge 'why would the Ascians not use this information against us', because they would also know exactly that, and Emet-Selch and Elidibus had every reason to crack it out if it were true, so we can reason that it's not. And even if you dismiss that, you then need to acknowledge that the Scions have exactly the same information as we do, and still never bring it up, almost as if it's not a conclusion that reasonably educated and trustworthy people in-universe would think is credible.

And if you dismiss THAT... who do you want to hear from to believe this? Because I feel like you wouldn't believe Hydaelyn herself, and yet that's basically the only higher authority left to hear from on this.

But, again: there's nothing saying she can't temper us, just that she hasn't.

[Cleretic]

There's little doubt that there's some kind of primal lurking in Garlemald between the whole tower situation and that unsettling roar (Which was mentioned as being the only thing the victims of the tower tempering could recall).

We know that the "gate of the gods" requires a heavy amount of resources to be opened (Which lines up with how the towers are siphoning aether out of the environment as well as their prisoners), and the dreamer is somehow involved in this process.

The nickname of "the dreamer" also fits rather cleanly with Anima's original role in FF X as the summoned form of the one of the fayths whose dream sustains Spira's self-destructive cycle of pilgrimage and sacrifice.

And on this... yeah, I can't knock out any of that. I don't think any of it's directly confirming it, and you shouldn't necessarily be going 'this is definitely the exact thing that's happening' (and personally I'm still rooting for my 'Anima is Emmerololth' theory), but the logic holds up to scrutiny and the idea holds some narrative weight, so yeah, it can work.

[Veloran]

Again, how did Midgardsormr blow away our Blessing of Light just like that if it's our being tempered?

He should be one of the most powerful creatures on the planet. I don't see why he couldn't.

Also, at what point of Shadowbringers before we blasted Emet-Selch away did he work against the interest of Zodiark?

First, he doesn't simply kill everybody from the very start. He could have just allied with Vauthry and had the Sin Eaters swarm over Lakeland and slaughter everyone, and at many points throughout the expansion he has opportunities to do as he pleases on such a front. Moreso, he goes as far as to save Y'shtola, an enemy, for really no gain on his own part. He reveals the history of the Final Days and the Sundering and the true nature of Hydaelyn and Zodiark as primals, all things which could be dangerous to reveal for Zodiark. He allows WoL to absorb the Light without knowing whether or not it would be contained, throwing the entire rejoining of the First into jeopardy. He creates the entire plan with the Azem stone in preparation for his own defeat, and when confronting WoL never retreats when he easily could have done so, endangering the entire Ascian cause through his own death. After which, he outright saves WoL's life against Elidibus, causing his downfall and all but ending the Ascians as an organization.

None of this is advancing Zodiark's will, if anything it's actively harmful.

The issue of the PC's potential tempering actually is addressed in a fireside chat with Ardbert('s spirit) during the Shadowbringers MSQ; he says it doesn't much matter since we'd be doing more or less the same things anyway.

The issue is, it would matter if suddenly we came to a moment where her will and ours were in contradiction. This isn't something that can be dismissed out of hand, WoL themselves has a serious complex over it.

Even that much is in question, given it's the Echo that prevents our tempering, not Hydaelyn's blessing - and we had the Echo before even a fraction of the blessing, so logically speaking we can't be tempered.

As others have said, that didn't help the Convocation.

but nobody ever sees any sort of corruption, not even Y'shtola with her aethersense

There's no evidence for Y'shtola or any of the Scions being able to sense tempering. So far as I can recall she never says anything about Emet being tempered despite having seen him, none of the Scions are able to use their goggles to discern that there are tempered in the Ala Mhigan ranks or whether or not Ga Bu was truly tempered, and Y'shtola's aethervision clearly isn't so acute that she can tell whether somebody is an Ascian, a disembodied soul possessing a body, or even if someone is themselves a primal. Basically, if WoL was tempered, there's no way for anybody to be able to tell.

[MikkoAkure]

He should be one of the most powerful creatures on the planet. I don't see why he couldn't.

So... according to that, Midgardsormr, Hydaelyn's oldest and most powerful protector, removes our tempering in order to test our worthiness to Hydaelyn? And he never brings it up ever again despite the fact that we go through giant efforts that take up a whole patch to figure out how to end tempering when he's been with us the entire time? That doesn't make any sense and the amount of hoops that "Blessing of Light = tempering" has to go through in order to be an actual thing when the "tempering" has no actual affect considering all the WoLs who go against her will isn't worth it.

First, he doesn't simply kill everybody from the very start. He could have just allied with Vauthry and had the Sin Eaters swarm over Lakeland and slaughter everyone, and at many points throughout the expansion he has opportunities to do as he pleases on such a front. Moreso, he goes as far as to save Y'shtola, an enemy, for really no gain on his own part. He reveals the history of the Final Days and the Sundering and the true nature of Hydaelyn and Zodiark as primals, all things which could be dangerous to reveal for Zodiark. He allows WoL to absorb the Light without knowing whether or not it would be contained, throwing the entire rejoining of the First into jeopardy. He creates the entire plan with the Azem stone in preparation for his own defeat, and when confronting WoL never retreats when he easily could have done so, endangering the entire Ascian cause through his own death. After which, he outright saves WoL's life against Elidibus, causing his downfall and all but ending the Ascians as an organization.

None of this is advancing Zodiark's will, if anything it's actively harmful.

As for Emet-Selch, he already stated his plan in the story. To begin with, he only shows up after we've already ruined his original plans with Vauthry and Eulmore and killed half of the lightwardens, absorbing their aether. He senses a new plan from that and directed us to suck up all the light wardens, which was supposed to turn us into a super lightwarden to go crazy and wreck the First and we held on, but barely. He himself stated that whenever we show up, Ascian plans go awry so he was trying to instead take a different, sly approach to things. On top of that, he said he can't operate well in the light of the First so that sort of prevents him from going full Hades and wrecking everything. He doesn't spend much screentime in the light and the only power we see him use under the unnatural sky is teleportation. He even uses a gun of all things to shoot someone, when he's supposed to have the power of a full Ancient being. I'm not sure he could go full Ascian in the light of the First to correct our meddling if he wanted to.

The other half of the new plan was that if we showed we could suck up all of the lightwardens and be OK, that we are his friend reborn. He was hoping to recruit us to work with him to bring back Zodiark and rejoin the Convocation. I'm not sure how revealing all of the history damages Zodiark's revival. It was all in an effort to convince us of his righteousness and when we refused, he tried to kill us. Don't know how that's a rebellion against Zodiark.

As for his actions after his defeat, his aether was finally returned to the Lifestream after we blasted him. I don't believe anything he does after he's already killed should reflect being tempered by Zodiark and expecting that is a bit ridiculous.


I thought the forums gave up on "WoL is tempered" after the true nature of the Echo was revealed, Trying to pin the tempering on something else just feels like "pictures connected by strings on a corkboard" crazy. It's easier to explain that we help Hydaelyn because we want to save the world, not because we're made to. Before we even met Minfilia or ever even heard the name "Hydaelyn", we were presented with the clear danger of "shadowy beings are operating behind the scenes to cause trouble and kill people" and followed that thread to where we are now. Going back to retcon all that as "we were told to" is a super silly cheap shot.