Are some jobs 'too feminine' in aesthetics?

[Theodric]

It's strange to me that there are a handful of posters eager to try and paint personal preferences in relation to aesthetics as 'insecurity'. I, personally, do not get that impression in the slightest.

I'm gay. I like conventionally attractive men ranging from the classically handsome to the ruggedly handsome. I have very little interest in the idea of playing feminine or androgynous men. Which, again, is a personal preference. It also extends to the aesthetics of animations, character design and glamour design.

I'd rather not see glamour go in the same direction as hairstyles where the majority are either feminine or androgynous in design. I'd much prefer variety and a healthy balance of masculine, feminine and androgynous designs to suit a broad variety of tastes.

I think Shadowbringers has been a bit better on that front and some of the sets made available to healers - such as the Cryptlurker gear - have been a refreshing change of pace to the usual fare. I hope that we continue to see more variety moving forward.

[Aelin_Ashryver]

I feel like two things are being conflated here: how clothing fits and it's style. I'm not saying gear shouldn't be tailored to our characters and actually fit them. Changing a top so it fits the chest of your character is not necessarily a change in style.

The frills on the side of the White Mage gear for endwalker though has nothing to do with body type and I would argue that there is nothing inherently "feminine" about frills. Men have shirts that have the same frills/ruffles right down the front and they aren't considered feminine. At different points in history that would be the norm for men's attire.

Should the male version of the white mage artifact armor not include the frills in order to suit those who think they are too feminine? Should neither the version for male character or female characters have the frills? What I'm saying is if you take the frills away because some think they are too feminine you are taking choice away.

Well I would argue the frills is a design choice that is made with the feminine figure in mind. As I said before they are often used to accentuate feminine features. Taking the frills away only makes it more classically masculine. Does it take a choice away? I guess, but ultimately you have no more choices than before.. you either have them on the men or you don't, sadly there is no frills toggle! It's not jus the frills, its where said frills are as well.

[MirielleLavandre]

I'm sorry if I am behind the times or maybe just different culturally (myself and my friend in OP are both Japanese with Japanese family/friends mostly) - but what does 'gendered' mean? I mean, is it a negative or a positive thing in Western thought? To us, there's feminine and masculine, thus why there was such pushback long ago about bunny suits (I think) for men - it just isn't something most Japanese would think to do or care about. Perhaps there is a disconnect between the country of publication's view on gender norms and most of the Western viewpoint? Or maybe I just don't understand the meaning of that word ^^

[Aelin_Ashryver]

I'm sorry if I am behind the times or maybe just different culturally (myself and my friend in OP are both Japanese with Japanese family/friends mostly) - but what does 'gendered' mean? I mean, is it a negative or a positive thing in Western thought? To us, there's feminine and masculine, thus why there was such pushback long ago about bunny suits (I think) for men - it just isn't something most Japanese would think to do or care about. Perhaps there is a disconnect between the country of publication's view on gender norms and most of the Western viewpoint? Or maybe I just don't understand the meaning of that word ^^

Gendered ie, the stereotype of dresses are for girls and suits are for men. Some could see it negatively but it is more just to point out the style of the clothing and who you would expect to typically be wearing it. Add on the next stereotype! Girls are healers and the more "manly" job is smth like tanks so the outfits we feel are designed with these stereotypes at their core. Healer stuff tends toward more female styles more often than not, it is not nice for males looking for something less 'girly'

[Wasselin]

Or how about, stay with me now, we even it out and give less robes/dresses/skirts for healers and casters and more jackets and trousers like people are asking for. Which includes women! They want pants too! While ShB has been better about healer and caster gear it is still very one sided rather than balanced. This is explicitly true when it comes to the AF gear. WHM is almost always some kind of Nun or dress styled outfit. Which could look good on a male character, but unless you are a male miq'ote (And like the male viera will be able to pull it off too) it just doesn't fit you. A male Au Ra in the ShB or SB AF gear just looks ridiculous. Like straight up comical. I doubt there would be half of the complaints if these types of outfits were actually tailored to the male bodies but unfortunately many of them are not, or if they are they aren't done right for all of the male models.

Edit: Specifically talking about the WHM AF gear. The main topic is about that, but just thought I would clarify.

I'm all for more variety. I just don't want frills or robes taken away from male characters by making two very different versions of the same gear. That adds less variety for everyone.

However, for the White Mage artifact gear I completely understand why it's robes. Throughout the series white mage has been portrayed as wearing robes. The White Mage in the first Final Fantasy wears robes. The first named white mage Minwu from Final Fantasy II was wearing robes.

By the same reasoning, I understand why there are more robes than suits for casters and healers. Should it really be 50/50 robes vs pants? I think there are quite a few non-robe options out there and I'm sure they will add more. I doubt it will be at a place where it's ever 50% though.

[LioJen]

No, keep your frilly dress for males and females. No need to change what's already there

But ALSO give an armored caster set for males and females. Maybe not for WHM, but I think BLM would fit fine with more "aggressive" looks sometimes.

Right now casters have very few choices of looks. You have robes, you have modern clothes, you have memesuits. Tanks and DPS can have both armor and soft clothes right now, pants and shirts and skirts and robes and every kind of metal or leather. Casters do not get that same variety and there is no need to start making armchair psychologist diagnoses of anyone who would like a different look than a dress.

[Katie_Kitty]

I'm all for more variety. I just don't want frills or robes taken away from male characters by making two very different versions of the same gear. That adds less variety for everyone.

However, for the White Mage artifact gear I completely understand why it's robes. Throughout the series white mage has been portrayed as wearing robes. The White Mage in the first Final Fantasy wears robes. The first named white mage Minwu from Final Fantasy II was wearing robes.

By the same reasoning, I understand why there are more robes than suits for casters and healers. Should it really be 50/50 robes vs pants? I think there are quite a few non-robe options out there and I'm sure they will add more. I doubt it will be at a place where it's ever 50% though.

Maybe a better compromise would be something like "There should be more style options for types of glamour that can be used by all jobs and genders and races". WHM job gear will always be robes, but there's no reason why WHMs necessarily need to wear them.

[Aelin_Ashryver]

I'm all for more variety. I just don't want frills or robes taken away from male characters by making two very different versions of the same gear. That adds less variety for everyone.

However, for the White Mage artifact gear I completely understand why it's robes. Throughout the series white mage has been portrayed as wearing robes. The White Mage in the first Final Fantasy wears robes. The first named white mage Minwu from Final Fantasy II was wearing robes.

By the same reasoning, I understand why there are more robes than suits for casters and healers. Should it really be 50/50 robes vs pants? I think there are quite a few non-robe options out there and I'm sure they will add more. I doubt it will be at a place where it's ever 50% though.

Why not meet in the middle and have it alternate though? As it is right now there is a LOT more typical robes etc than not. A few gear sets of more typical male style and less classic caster would not be a bad thing. They don't have to do away with robes altogether, just be mindful that alternatives need to be provided to actually make these archetypes more widely adopted by more players. It feels less creative the more we get robes on robes on robes.

[MirielleLavandre]

Gendered ie, the stereotype of dresses are for girls and suits are for men. Some could see it negatively but it is more just to point out the style of the clothing and who you would expect to typically be wearing it.

Ah thank you -- so it is just what is normally worn by each gender I guess -- though is thinking that dresses are for women and suits for men a bad thing? I guess most people would call myself and most of JPN/Asia old fashioned or, worse, prejudiced or something for not knowing what the modern definitions and/or acceptance things should be, so sorry in advance if I offended anyone ^^

[Caurcas]

Ah thank you -- so it is just what is normally worn by each gender I guess -- though is thinking that dresses are for women and suits for men a bad thing? I guess most people would call myself and most of JPN/Asia old fashioned or, worse, prejudiced or something for not knowing what the modern definitions and/or acceptance things should be, so sorry in advance if I offended anyone ^^

No, not to most people. However, a rather loud vocal minority make it into an issue.