Can SQ-EN draw a line in the sand w/ 3rd Parties?

[LisSquid]

...

You don't have a single job at 80, so I am going to try to explain why this dead horse thread is amusing. Cactbot runs on reading out the script of a fight. This is already written out and understood by anyone going into Savage pretty early on. Generally after week 1, but sometimes it takes a bit longer. Cactbot is unusable in this time because it depends on this timeline, so these "World Firsters are cheating!" is not true. They usually publish the timeline themselves.

Just posting the link here, because the image is actually pretty large.
https://i.imgur.com/QoMUApw.png
This is the timeline of P1 for E12s. This is how the fight will play out every single pull, and without exception besides the absolute nuking of the boss.

This isn't WoW. There is no magic DBM that gives you markers and individual callouts over your head. This oogey boogeyman is an annoying TTS reader that is more obtrusive than anything else, because players making their own callouts will be drowned out. Because it is a simple TTS program, it cannot ever change for RNG, unlike DBM (which people in this thread seem to be more familiar with). DBM is a way more sophisticated program that Blizzard basically made mandatory due to not designing well structured encounters.

Is there some benefit to being alerted to a mechanic? Not any more than just having progged it, and the fight becomes monkey-brained muscle memory. TTS isn't going to help you clear the content. If someone can't clear, then using Cactbot isn't going to help because there is a deeper issue at play there.

[Deceptus]

Title.

I've been watching streamers do high end stuff and I see and hear programs announcing mechanics before they even exist on screen. Certain mechanics are randomized in the order they will occur and people are reacting to them far in advance.

Folks try to rationalize this as ok by saying, 'oh it's no different than having your raid lead call it', but let me counter with this; does your raid lead have precognition and can tell the order of random mechanics before they happen all the time? If not, then you're cheating. Plain and simple.

Reject me, oh forums mine.

Without installing programs that will sniff your computer for 3rd party applications: No, this can't happen.

It's always been don't announce, don't tell. Yes there should be consequences for streamers caught using the tools.

On the flip side, there are certain impaired gamers who with the audio callouts, make the game a bit more accessible so it's a double sided problem.

[Saraide]

Im not so sure. Yoshida said in one of the recent media tour interviews, when asked about an officially sanctioned race to world first event for EW, that for one to occur, third party tools would have to be hard cracked down on. Im paraphrasing of course, but he said it.

Do you have a link to that perhaps? Hard cracking down on third party tools means no discord communication, no excel sheets for BiS calculations, hell not even streaming because looking through vods lets you look for when mistakes happened.

The problem isn't the devs designing the encounters around the addons or not. It's that since they exist, a notable portion of the raiding community requiring them. Ive been gaming and working with software all my life and this is the first time I have ever seen a company allow software that modifies the code of the game running. These aren't xml UI mods. These are what's known as "trainers" in the industry. It's baffling that these have anything more than a zero tolerance policy.

But cactbot only reads packets, it's not modifying game code. Or are we talking about something else now?

[Xaruko_Nexume]

You don't have a single job at 80, so I am going to try to explain why this dead horse thread is amusing. Cactbot runs on reading out the script of a fight. This is already written out and understood by anyone going into Savage pretty early on. Generally after week 1, but sometimes it takes a bit longer. Cactbot is unusable in this time because it depends on this timeline, so these "World Firsters are cheating!" is not true. They usually publish the timeline themselves.

Just posting the link here, because the image is actually pretty large.
https://i.imgur.com/QoMUApw.png
This is the timeline of P1 for E12s. This is how the fight will play out every single pull, and without exception besides the absolute nuking of the boss.

This isn't WoW. There is no magic DBM that gives you markers and individual callouts over your head. This oogey boogeyman is an annoying TTS reader that is more obtrusive than anything else, because players making their own callouts will be drowned out. Because it is a simple TTS program, it cannot ever change for RNG, unlike DBM (which people in this thread seem to be more familiar with). DBM is a way more sophisticated program that Blizzard basically made mandatory due to not designing well structured encounters.

Is there some benefit to being alerted to a mechanic? Not any more than just having progged it, and the fight becomes monkey-brained muscle memory. TTS isn't going to help you clear the content. If someone can't clear, then using Cactbot isn't going to help because there is a deeper issue at play there.

Do you think this is purely about cactbot? I won't post them here but the amount of advantages and actions that these third party tools can do in the game is astounding and an unfair advantage that I am sure you are already well aware of based on your other knowledge. I won't post them here but its easy to find how to install and use them and what they can do with a quick google search. Don't be so obviously disingenuous as to resorting to the WoW equivalent of "lol post on your main." It isn't the checkmate that you think it is.

Also, to add, you talk about magic DBM with WoW. Ironically, the addons available for wow actually are just LUA UI modifications. Third party programs that modify the games code in memory are actually bannable in WoW...but not in this game! The XIV toll can actually get away with doing MORE than what third party tools can do in WoW! Astounding.

[Xaruko_Nexume]

Do you have a link to that perhaps? Hard cracking down on third party tools means no discord communication, no excel sheets for BiS calculations, hell not even streaming because looking through vods lets you look for when mistakes happened.



But cactbot only reads packets, it's not modifying game code. Or are we talking about something else now?

I've watched dozens of hours of interviews the past couple of weeks. No I don't have a link but im pretty sure it was the interview he did with the dude from method, and I thought it was obvious this isn't "just about cactpot" at this point. And like I said about paraphrasing, im sure in this context "third party tools" doesn't mean spreadsheets and calculators but tools that directly interface with the games code running on someones machine. Something that actually modifies the game like certain "xiv plugins."

[LisSquid]

...

I am simply posting from what I can see, not unlike how I can clear content just fine doing the same. You're posting from a character who wouldn't have experienced the content these 3rd party tools would somehow help. I will repeat as I said earlier in this thread: If you need a tool that tells you to move right when the left side of the room is lava then you are not going to clear with or without it. Encounter design isn't nearly that sloppy.

[Payadopa]

So what, now high-end raids will be joining the rest of the pve content as content with no value because people feeling entitled to every type of reward in the game think they must be allowed clears instead of "treating it like a job" as they say to get better at learning and coordinating...?
Sigh.

I hope this doesn't make SE change their stance and actually nice and harmless stuff like helmet mods don't suffer because there were too many spoiled players relying and expecting cactbot.

And unlike WoW, XIV can also be played on console where mods don't exist. That alone is probably the reason for their stance against it. Aesthetics are one thing, altering gameplay is another.

Regardless of what happens, I hope we don't create a similar situation as in WoW (and I'm sure that's not exclosing to that one game) where modders and devs have an arms race with one another.

[Xaruko_Nexume]

I am simply posting from what I can see, not unlike how I can clear content just fine doing the same. You're posting from a character who wouldn't have experienced the content these 3rd party tools would somehow help. I will repeat as I said earlier in this thread: If you need a tool that tells you to move right when the left side of the room is lava then you are not going to clear with or without it. Encounter design isn't nearly that sloppy.

Again these tools, that are as simple to add and use as clicking "install" do much, much more than that. If they just "modified the UI" it actually wouldnt be that big of a deal.

A few things I was able to come up with easily that ONE program you download allows you to do along with many other things:

- Allows you to see player hitbox
- Can automatically find and relay hunt mobs
- Condenses combos to one button
- Allows macros to be daisy-chained
- Allows mouseover targeting without macro delay
- Gives player realtime information about mobs in PoTD
- Shows different damage types visually (magic/physical))

[LisSquid]

Again these tools, that are as simple to add and use as clicking "install" do much, much more than that. If they just "modified the UI" it actually wouldnt be that big of a deal.

I am actually in the dark about any 3rd party tool that does anything more than modifying the UI. Trackers and parsers? Those are pretty much anything that comes up from these simple google searches. Other than that there was a FFXIV DBM was never got visual ques and was abandoned 6/7 years ago. Finding literally nothing that isn't just a TTS callout of the fight script, like I posted in the visual aid, for combat.

If trackers for dots are really so gamebreaking, then my setup of making buffs/debuffs at 200% and near my center of focus is just as much of a cheat.

There are much more pressing issues that actually impact player experience in this game: bots, lack of a proper report/player safety system, and RMT.

Editing to reflect your new post:

- Allows you to see player hitbox

Which is helpful if.. you have the time to look between your feet and not just spend half the time just adjusting. This has never been an issue for me.

- Can automatically find and relay hunt mobs

Which is not something I'm familiar with, but conductors and scouts already spend a lot of time doing this already to help the community. Seems like a net win for community run trains.

- Condenses combos to one button

I don't have trouble hitting 1-2-3-1-4-5 ad nauseam. Might help someone who has tremors or something, idk. Actual job control is brain dead to begin with.

- Allows mouseover targeting without macro delay)

Sounds like a QoL thing SE should add, honestly. Healer main so I am intimately familiar with the delay, but don't begrudge people shaving off a micro second to hit broil a hair faster than me.

- Gives player realtime information about mobs in PoTD

Nothing to say with this. Not too familiar with PoTD beyond leveling abuse.

- Shows different damage types visually (magic/physical))

Can already do this. Mage will do magic damage and Hulk will do physical. With the rare exception, but you'll know just reading your real-time battle log available in your chat box (VERY helpful, btw).

[Waterscape]

Jesus Christ , Yoshi P already said that its a grey area and they are not going to ban people because they use a 3 rd party program because guess what discord is a 3rd party program too , as long as you dont harass people you are fine , stop making useless thread about that , this shouldnt be hard to understand !!