It's time to hire dedicated Tank an Healer devs!

[AikenDrum]

tanks could use more variety in design instead of

it's not bad, just not as good as something like magical ranged have i guess

[Garnix]

tanks could use more variety in design instead of

it's not bad, just not as good as something like magical ranged have i guess

You make it look like a lot worse than what it is.
3 parts combo also exist on all melees. The ranged attack also exists on all melee. The gap closer also exists on all melee (though I agree they feel different on each melee DPS compared to tanks which all feel the same, but tanks also do not have a 'disengage' button)
AoE combos also exist on melees.
All of this is basically the basis of melee combat in this game, so yeah, they are pretty much the same.
The regen (aurora/clemency etc) are very different between all tanks...is AD even considered an healing spell?...
Even the invulns all feel different.
The tank stance is not really an ability, just a role button to be honest.
So basically, the only thing that are very similar, are the defensive cooldown, which, most often, have some flavor to differentiate them, and some are getting a bit more flavor in EW. And I wish they continue down that route with the other defensive abilities later (the 30% CD are all...meh...)
In my opinion, the way they are differentiating the tanks is fine.
Even for DRK to an extent..

[AikenDrum]

hey i said it's not bad ^^ they are somewhat different, just not as different as magical ranged; don't have melee ones so can't compare, but for example when i switch from pld to gnb it feels more like playing a different spec of a single tank job, and when i switch from rdm to blm - yeah, that's a completely different job.

[Deceptus]

You make it look like a lot worse than what it is.
3 parts combo also exist on all melees. The ranged attack also exists on all melee. The gap closer also exists on all melee (though I agree they feel different on each melee DPS compared to tanks which all feel the same, but tanks also do not have a 'disengage' button)
AoE combos also exist on melees.
All of this is basically the basis of melee combat in this game, so yeah, they are pretty much the same.
The regen (aurora/clemency etc) are very different between all tanks...is AD even considered an healing spell?...
Even the invulns all feel different.
The tank stance is not really an ability, just a role button to be honest.
So basically, the only thing that are very similar, are the defensive cooldown, which, most often, have some flavor to differentiate them, and some are getting a bit more flavor in EW. And I wish they continue down that route with the other defensive abilities later (the 30% CD are all...meh...)
In my opinion, the way they are differentiating the tanks is fine.
Even for DRK to an extent..

Is AD even a healing spell? . . . You have read the ToolTip right?

They don't make it look worse than it is, that is EXACTLY as it is. That picture just exemplifies how much the tanks are homogenized.

Look, tanks are absolutely copies of each other. 123 combo for emnity, 12 combo for aoe, 1 small group utility, 1 small defensive CD on short CD, 1 Big defensive CD on longer CD, and a resource dump.

[Garnix]

Is AD even a healing spell? . . . You have read the ToolTip right?

They don't make it look worse than it is, that is EXACTLY as it is. That picture just exemplifies how much the tanks are homogenized.

Look, tanks are absolutely copies of each other. 123 combo for emnity, 12 combo for aoe, 1 small group utility, 1 small defensive CD on short CD, 1 Big defensive CD on longer CD, and a resource dump.

AD is just as much an healing spell as the new Endwalker Holy Spirit to me, or Storm's path: a DPS skill that you use in your standard rotation and that just happens to have an healing effect. It is not really comparable to Equilibrium which you only use when you need healing.
All melee DPS have a 123 combo, a 12 combo for aoe, and then things to differentiate their rotation. Just like tanks. I think DPS-wise the tanks feel different enough (Delirium/IR aside, but even that should feel better now with only 3 stacks), without having a rotation as complex as the various DPS.
If you ignore all their unique skills, they are all the same, for sure yes.

As I said, I agree that a bit diversity on the defensive side would be nice though.

[Saefinn]

AD is just as much an healing spell as the new Endwalker Holy Spirit to me, or Storm's path: a DPS skill that you use in your standard rotation and that just happens to have an healing effect. It is not really comparable to Equilibrium which you only use when you need healing.
All melee DPS have a 123 combo, a 12 combo for aoe, and then things to differentiate their rotation. Just like tanks. I think DPS-wise the tanks feel different enough (Delirium/IR aside, but even that should feel better now with only 3 stacks), without having a rotation as complex as the various DPS.
If you ignore all their unique skills, they are all the same, for sure yes.

As I said, I agree that a bit diversity on the defensive side would be nice though.

Melee DPS don't quite have a 1,2,3 combo for DPS. Actually if anything for their base DPS combo abilities:
For MNK it's: 1, 2, 3 [change position], 4, 5, 6 (as an example, I know MNK has more flexibility than this)
For SAM it's: 1, 2, 1, 3, 4 [change position], 1,5,6
For DRG it's: 1, 2, 3, 4 [change position], 5, 1, 6, 7, 5,[change position] 4
For NIN it's: 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 4

Then between those standard rotations, there's layers of extra complexity brought on by additional job mechanics that really set them apart from other melee DPS. DRG has its jumps, NIN has its Ninjutsu, SAM has its Kenki + Iaijutsu, MNK has chakras and will be getting Blitzes. NIN has the weakest combo rotation(s), but it gets much more use of its skills outside of it, so it justifies it.

Tanks are in no way near that level of variation between jobs. The DPS rotations are very close and the tanking skills mostly have equivalents to each other. I think the differences are more prevalent at a more challenging level of play. Whereas, on a DPS you can immediately feel the difference between them.

If I was teaching a NIN how to play DRG, I couldn't sit there and list many equivalent abilities to help them learn to play to get them in frame of mind of playing that job. There are some comparisons to made between the 4 melee DPS of course, like each have a base combo rotation to learn, but are all different, 3 of them are dependent on positions but for different benefits, and whilst you could compare building up Ninjutsu to building up Iaijutsu because you have 3 symbols to determine your skills, but how they work and used are different and SAM's relies on their combos whereas NIN's relies on a separate system. So where you find similarities, I'd be offering different explanations and they still have to learn something new.
But if I was teaching a DRK to play WAR, GNB or PLD I could find most of the skills have an equivalent with the same or very similar use.
If I was teaching an AST to play SCH or WHM I could find most of the skills have an equivalent with the same or very similar use.


And I guess to add:
People aren't looking at Reaper from the media tour going, "that's 85% Dragoon".
But we are looking at Sage in the media tour going, "that's 85% Scholar"
And when I picked up Gunbreaker one of my first thoughts was "this feels kinda like old Paladin" (though obviously it later gets Continuation as a defining feature)
And when I hopped onto new DRK, I did think, "this is a lot more like WAR".

[Jeeqbit]

Is AD even a healing spell? . . . You have read the ToolTip right?

It's only a healing spell when doing a big pull because it heals from each enemy it hits, so it has the potential to heal walking dead. On a single target the heal is very weak.

Look, tanks are absolutely copies of each other. 123 combo for emnity, 12 combo for aoe, 1 small group utility, 1 small defensive CD on short CD, 1 Big defensive CD on longer CD, and a resource dump.

DRK has far more than 12 for aoe, with Quietus, Flood of Shadow, Abyssal Drain, Salted Earth, Living Shadow and some new ones in Endwalker. Paladin has Holy Circle, Confiteor, Circle of Scorn and some new ones in Endwalker.

I don't think you can say that their combos are the same either because DRK is 123, WAR is 123 sometimes 124, PLD is 123124555 and GNB is like 123456 then back to 123.

[Claire_Pendragon]

~Tanks are unique~

Tanks are "mostly" in a better spot than Healers, but just barely.
When people point out the "molds", they are giving a generalization, based on what is clearly the "base mold" in which the class is then built around.

Every tank IS built upon the idea of 123 single target, and 12 AoE.
From there, they slap on some minor stuff, to distinguish the tanks from eachother.

The ONLY tank id say is an exception, is PLD, as PLD not only fit the mold from the start, it gets the least taking away from it, and ended up the most complex of the 4 tanks. They have mostly been adding to PLD, where as they mostly just take away from WAR/DRK.

But, I honestly have no problem with the base mold of "123 single, 12 aoe" as long as they 'added" features are interesting enough. DRK is just far too close to feeling like its base, even if it has the most oGCDs to spam. DRKs base could actually work, if they made some VERY minor adjustments. (not removing or really adding skills) and most of the current complainers probably wouldnt have even thought DRK was boring (outside of loving 3.0 or 4.0 build more, and comparing it to them.)

[Saefinn]

It's only a healing spell when doing a big pull because it heals from each enemy it hits, so it has the potential to heal walking dead. On a single target the heal is very weak.

DRK has far more than 12 for aoe, with Quietus, Flood of Shadow, Abyssal Drain, Salted Earth, Living Shadow and some new ones in Endwalker. Paladin has Holy Circle, Confiteor, Circle of Scorn and some new ones in Endwalker.

I don't think you can say that their combos are the same either because DRK is 123, WAR is 123 sometimes 124, PLD is 123124555 and GNB is like 123456 then back to 123.

Not the same, but I think similar enough without there being much complexity layered above it to properly set them apart. Especially if DRK does 123, GNB does 123 except when it gets Continuation, WAR does 123 with the odd 124 and then PLD does 123,124,555 it's not a lot of variety between them. And their extra damage related abilities are not unique or big enough to fully set them apart.

When we look at the tanking kits, a lot of the skills get used in the same way for similar/same purposes. I think it looks better for EW (especially for PLD), but still could be improved and I think it's better versus what it is like for healers. But I would argue they already had their uniqueness in previous expansions as did healers. I realise they want to move forward, but I guess with the spirit of this thread, more could be put into these two roles to maybe experience some of that uniqueness and variety within their own roles that DPS jobs have got and feel a similar level of engagement.

[Jeeqbit]

For everyone saying tank utility is homogenized, consider that if a fight is designed to do a tank buster every 30 seconds and some of the tanks do not have a 25 second cooldown for it they may eventually run out of resources. WAR did not used to have utility or aoe mitigation and it put it at a disadvantage enough for Shake It Off's effect to be patched in.

Before someone thinks "if they need this homogenization because of raid design, then maybe the mitigation should function differently", TBN, Thrill of Battle, Nascent Flash and Sheltron all work differently and have different situations they excel at more than the others.