Openly admitting to ignoring the players

[Shurrikhan]

This already exists. It's called Normal Mode. EX, Unreal, Savage, and Ultimate exist for a reason on the broad spectrum of difficulty. Harder difficulties require more effort out of players to complete them.

This is what I don't understand about this. This rationale is about as relevant as telling a village they needn't be starving because food exists... somewhere.

Yes, an actually compelling difficulty exists... somewhere within the game, but only if you happen to enjoy the means by which that difficulty is provided (e.g., ultra-scripted fights for "difficulty" in Ultimate or extremely long grinds for "difficulty" in solo PotD clears).

You enjoy 4-man content that's not merely a procedurally generated slog? No difficulty for you, I'm afraid. You'd like 8-man content that isn't painfully scripted or limited to perfectly rectangular or circular rooms? No can do, sorry.

At virtually no cost, though, compelling difficulty levels --as giving by having actual options within each different content types-- could exist for... any and all content. That is what your painful oversimplification ignores here.

[Liam_Harper]

Yes, an actually compelling difficulty exists... somewhere within the game, but only if you happen to enjoy the means by which that difficulty is provided (e.g., ultra-scripted fights for "difficulty" in Ultimate or extremely long grinds for "difficulty" in solo PotD clears).

You enjoy 4-man content that's not merely a procedurally generated slog? No difficulty for you, I'm afraid. You'd like 8-man content that isn't painfully scripted or limited to perfectly rectangular or circular rooms? No can do, sorry.

I agree. I like Savage and Ultimates so that itch is scratched somewhat, but there are a lot of things the game simply refuses to do because "a hard difficulty exists". I dislike that large scale raids are strictly limited to faceroll Duty Finder alliance or a niche tucked away somewhere like BA and DR. It's a shame there's no regular semi-casual flexible group sized large raids for FC's to progress in, guild raid night used to be the big thing to look forward to in other games.
4 man content is the other obvious one. It's either faceroll DF dungeons or "go solo PotD lol". I just don't like the format of PotD. It's not a dungeon. It's long, incredibly punishing in a bad way and locked to Save files. It's not something you can grab a few FC or friends and say "hey, anyone up for an EX dungeon or two" and just hop in for fun.

It's always either scripted 8 man, faceroll or full of weird mechanics and niches. But rarely ever just plain regular large raids or dungeons with a bit more bite.

[Gemina]

I agree. I like Savage and Ultimates so that itch is scratched somewhat, but there are a lot of things the game simply refuses to do because "a hard difficulty exists". I dislike that large scale raids are strictly limited to faceroll Duty Finder alliance or a niche tucked away somewhere like BA and DR. It's a shame there's no regular semi-casual flexible group sized large raids for FC's to progress in, guild raid night used to be the big thing to look forward to in other games.
4 man content is the other obvious one. It's either faceroll DF dungeons or "go solo PotD lol". I just don't like the format of PotD. It's not a dungeon. It's long, incredibly punishing in a bad way and locked to Save files. It's not something you can grab a few FC or friends and say "hey, anyone up for an EX dungeon or two" and just hop in for fun.

It's always either scripted 8 man, faceroll or full of weird mechanics and niches. But rarely ever just plain regular large raids or dungeons with a bit more bite.

This game tosses a plethora of content at players in both solo and group formats, and the difficulty range is quite fair for being an mmo wherein the majority of the playerbase has a nice comfort level of where they like to do content. I can't help but facepalm when I see gripes like this. If you are no longer finding anything engaging, I don't think it's the game's fault; I think you're just burned out. Don't take that offensively. It's not meant to be. It's meant to have you take a step back and look around. Imagine being a totally brand new player coming into FFXIV right now.

The majority of the playerbase don't do Ultimate, Savage, or even EX. I mention that not because it's difficult and intimidating to try, but because each of those can be considered their own content, and require their own time investment. The same can be said about content like big game fishing, expert level crafting, housing and gardening, Eureka and Bozja, PoTD and HoH, etc. It's a big 'ol amusement park, and most players don't have the time to try all the rides, or they establish a comfort zone with particular rides and don't want to try the others. You really should be able to find something engaging and fun. If you can't, then you might have to seek out that engagement and challenge elsewhere.

In any case, and still using the park metaphor; you can't hop off the rollercoaster and head over to the Ferris wheel and expect the same kind of thrill, yeah? Don't hop into dungeon after doing savage/ultimate and be like, "You know what would be cool? Some kind of enrage timer to make things interesting!"

[ty_taurus]

This game tosses a plethora of content at players in both solo and group formats, and the difficulty range is quite fair for being an mmo wherein the majority of the playerbase has a nice comfort level of where they like to do content. I can't help but facepalm when I see gripes like this. If you are no longer finding anything engaging, I don't think it's the game's fault; I think you're just burned out. Don't take that offensively. It's not meant to be. It's meant to have you take a step back and look around. Imagine being a totally brand new player coming into FFXIV right now.

The majority of the playerbase don't do Ultimate, Savage, or even EX. I mention that not because it's difficult and intimidating to try, but because each of those can be considered their own content, and require their own time investment. The same can be said about content like big game fishing, expert level crafting, housing and gardening, Eureka and Bozja, PoTD and HoH, etc. It's a big 'ol amusement park, and most players don't have the time to try all the rides, or they establish a comfort zone with particular rides and don't want to try the others. You really should be able to find something engaging and fun. If you can't, then you might have to seek out that engagement and challenge elsewhere.

In any case, and still using the park metaphor; you can't hop off the rollercoaster and head over to the Ferris wheel and expect the same kind of thrill, yeah? Don't hop into dungeon after doing savage/ultimate and be like, "You know what would be cool? Some kind of enrage timer to make things interesting!"

The thing is, your comment is disregarding the entire issue. For healer players, many of whom have become experienced with how healing plays have discovered that healing is very poorly designed for casual content. DPS jobs are engaging at all levels of play. It doesn't matter if it's Ultimate or if it's your dungeon roulette. Sure, Ultimate is still more engaging for those that want to scratch that itch, but even when you're doing your dailies, if you enjoy your DPS job's playstyle, then it's still fun. Meanwhile, once you've understood how healing plays, casual content basically asks you to do nothing. Healing requirements are trivial to which healers don't neve need to stop DPSing to keep the party healthy. I don't really understand why there are some people who find the idea of asking for a job to always be fun for as many players as possible rather than only fun if the fight is pushing you to your limit or you're just not a very experienced healer is such an outrageous request.

This is not a theme park where the content exclusively dictates the experience you receive. The quality of the job you play is half the ride.

[Gemina]

The thing is, your comment is disregarding the entire issue. For healer players, many of whom have become experienced with how healing plays have discovered that healing is very poorly designed for casual content. DPS jobs are engaging at all levels of play. It doesn't matter if it's Ultimate or if it's your dungeon roulette. Sure, Ultimate is still more engaging for those that want to scratch that itch, but even when you're doing your dailies, if you enjoy your DPS job's playstyle, then it's still fun. Meanwhile, once you've understood how healing plays, casual content basically asks you to do nothing. Healing requirements are trivial to which healers don't neve need to stop DPSing to keep the party healthy. I don't really understand why there are some people who find the idea of asking for a job to always be fun for as many players as possible rather than only fun if the fight is pushing you to your limit or you're just not a very experienced healer is such an outrageous request.

This is not a theme park where the content exclusively dictates the experience you receive. The quality of the job you play is half the ride.

Am I disregarding the issue, or are the players I questioned disregarding casual players? One of those two cases fueled my last post, and it's definitely not the former. Having healed in this game for years, across all content except Ultimate, I am all too aware of the issues healers have in regards to their kits and the content. There is nothing wrong with asking for our jobs to be fun, and in the case of healers, we definitely should be receiving the same amount of attention that is paid to other jobs when it comes to making them fun and engaging to play. I will agree that is not happening. What I don't agree with is raising the difficulty level of casual content just because the more advanced players are not engaged. I will never get on board with that, and neither will this dev team. Dungeons like Grand Cosmos, Amaurot, and the Burn are about as tough as they will make 4-man. Players can and will fail mechs in dungeons like those, so healers will need to stay awake. There is Ratholos EX, but I don't count that one because of how healing is set up for that fight.

Healing however, is just a different role from the other two and this just needs to be accepted. Their kits are aimed at sustainability and erasing player mistakes. You're not going to get kits that have an intricate system of cogs that you need to understand in order to pump out respectable damage when those two responsibilities fall squarely on your shoulders. However, this doesn't mean healers can't have rewarding gameplay outside saving a raid from failure. I think that's what this team is still trying to figure out, and I don't think it's as simple as some people are trying to make it out to be.

[AFuzzyMu11in]

Am I disregarding the issue, or are the players I questioned disregarding casual players? One of those two cases fueled my last post, and it's definitely not the former. Having healed in this game for years, across all content except Ultimate, I am all too aware of the issues healers have in regards to their kits and the content. There is nothing wrong with asking for our jobs to be fun, and in the case of healers, we definitely should be receiving the same amount of attention that is paid to other jobs when it comes to making them fun and engaging to play. I will agree that is not happening. What I don't agree with is raising the difficulty level of casual content just because the more advanced players are not engaged. I will never get on board with that, and neither will this dev team. Dungeons like Grand Cosmos, Amaurot, and the Burn are about as tough as they will make 4-man. Players can and will fail mechs in dungeons like those, so healers will need to stay awake. There is Ratholos EX, but I don't count that one because of how healing is set up for that fight.

Healing however, is just a different role from the other two and this just needs to be accepted. Their kits are aimed at sustainability and erasing player mistakes. You're not going to get kits that have an intricate system of cogs that you need to understand in order to pump out respectable damage when those two responsibilities fall squarely on your shoulders. However, this doesn't mean healers can't have rewarding gameplay outside saving a raid from failure. I think that's what this team is still trying to figure out, and I don't think it's as simple as some people are trying to make it out to be.

Excellent post and I agree with everything you stated mostly.

[ty_taurus]

Am I disregarding the issue, or are the players I questioned disregarding casual players? One of those two cases fueled my last post, and it's definitely not the former. Having healed in this game for years, across all content except Ultimate, I am all too aware of the issues healers have in regards to their kits and the content. There is nothing wrong with asking for our jobs to be fun, and in the case of healers, we definitely should be receiving the same amount of attention that is paid to other jobs when it comes to making them fun and engaging to play. I will agree that is not happening. What I don't agree with is raising the difficulty level of casual content just because the more advanced players are not engaged. I will never get on board with that, and neither will this dev team. Dungeons like Grand Cosmos, Amaurot, and the Burn are about as tough as they will make 4-man. Players can and will fail mechs in dungeons like those, so healers will need to stay awake. There is Ratholos EX, but I don't count that one because of how healing is set up for that fight.

Healing however, is just a different role from the other two and this just needs to be accepted. Their kits are aimed at sustainability and erasing player mistakes. You're not going to get kits that have an intricate system of cogs that you need to understand in order to pump out respectable damage when those two responsibilities fall squarely on your shoulders. However, this doesn't mean healers can't have rewarding gameplay outside saving a raid from failure. I think that's what this team is still trying to figure out, and I don't think it's as simple as some people are trying to make it out to be.

It makes it very difficult to have a conversation about topics like this when you refuse to read the posts that players make about this issue because many of us couldn't beat a dead horse more than we already are in that none of us are advocating against casual play. If I had a dollar for every time someone has brought up "raise the skill ceiling without touching the skill floor" I'd be playing this game for free every month and then some. If you don't care enough to read any of our posts, then fine, but don't think you can weigh in on the subject because you don't know what you're responding to.

I'll say it again, Let healing be accessible and forgiving but at the same time design healing to be fun for all levels of skill at all levels of difficulty from dungeons to Ultimate. These two sides are not mutually exclusive. You can have both, and it's really not that hard to do. The problem is that we are the vocal minority, and there are too many new players flooding the queues to make our dissatisfaction make an impact. That's not to say that it's the new players fault, but rather, that SE should want healing to be fun for all skill levels, but they don't have to. They can not do anything about it and suffer no negative consequences, so why waste the resources that you could otherwise spend in other areas of the game?

[Kabooa]

It makes it very difficult to have a conversation about topics like this when you refuse to read the posts that players make about this issue because many of us couldn't beat a dead horse more than we already are in that none of us are advocating against casual play. If I had a dollar for every time someone has brought up "raise the skill ceiling without touching the skill floor" I'd be playing this game for free every month and then some. If you don't care enough to read any of our posts, then fine, but don't think you can weigh in on the subject because you don't know what you're responding to.

I'll say it again, Let healing be accessible and forgiving but at the same time design healing to be fun for all levels of skill at all levels of difficulty from dungeons to Ultimate. These two sides are not mutually exclusive. You can have both, and it's really not that hard to do. The problem is that we are the vocal minority, and there are too many new players flooding the queues to make our dissatisfaction make an impact. That's not to say that it's the new players fault, but rather, that SE should want healing to be fun for all skill levels, but they don't have to. They can not do anything about it and suffer no negative consequences, so why waste the resources that you could otherwise spend in other areas of the game?

I've read most of the posts in here.

Most of the ideas are awful, don't do what they aim to do, or are in the realm of "Just make it fun at all skill levels in all content." which might as well be saying nothing, for all the help that is. There are a few topics that merit discussion but they rarely get as much attention as the whine threads.

And, by the way, mind sharing that design for healing to be fun in all levels of content played by players of all skill levels? I'd like to apply that to the tanks and DPS, and since it's already solved, little reason to do extra work, ya know?

[Gemina]

It makes it very difficult to have a conversation about topics like this when you refuse to read the posts that players make about this issue because many of us couldn't beat a dead horse more than we already are in that none of us are advocating against casual play. If I had a dollar for every time someone has brought up "raise the skill ceiling without touching the skill floor" I'd be playing this game for free every month and then some. If you don't care enough to read any of our posts, then fine, but don't think you can weigh in on the subject because you don't know what you're responding to.

And if I had a dollar for the answer to healer boredom being to revert to antiquated gameplay, or to just add a couple of DPS skills, I could hire my own design team. I never said you're attempting to berate casual play, and the fact that you feel you have to defend yourself in such a manner tells me you're the one not reading posts, and responding emotionally. Don't think you can weigh me out because I don't concede. Is that what you do? Ostracize those who don't agree and conform? You try to make them feel like they don't belong in the conversation? Seriously WTF, dude?

I'll say it again, Let healing be accessible and forgiving but at the same time design healing to be fun for all levels of skill at all levels of difficulty from dungeons to Ultimate. These two sides are not mutually exclusive. You can have both, and it's really not that hard to do.

And then you say this in another response...

Well most people on here are ultimately not game designers, so yeah a lot of what gets posted isn't necessarily going to be good.

Why on Earth are you grieving me about not listening and reading the posts here when you acknowledge this?

The problem is that we are the vocal minority, and there are too many new players flooding the queues to make our dissatisfaction make an impact. That's not to say that it's the new players fault, but rather, that SE should want healing to be fun for all skill levels, but they don't have to. They can not do anything about it and suffer no negative consequences, so why waste the resources that you could otherwise spend in other areas of the game?

What really makes it difficult to have a civil conversation with a healthy exchange of ideas and debates are contradictory statements like this one. You say it's not the new player's fault, right after pointing the finger right at them. And then you resort to defeatism. How am I supposed to respond to that?

Listen bud. I'm on your side, and I'm trying to help. My attempts at being pragmatic are not attacks on the ideas being tossed around, or my refusal to read/listen to other posts. I am aware that most of the people here are not game designers, and that's fine. I don't believe this prohibits the exchange of ideas and debates on how to improve gameplay. However, my own frustration stems from the impression I get that players will voice the 'I want my cake and eat it too' mentality. You even bolded all of it:
"none of us are advocating against casual play"
"Let healing be accessible and forgiving"
"design healing to be fun for all levels of skill at all levels of difficulty from dungeon to ultimate"

Yet, you somehow think this is "easy"? You have to got to be kidding. Especially when your idea of making healing more fun is to immediately have healers multitask even more by adding more DPS responsibility. Additional frustration comes from a lot of refusal to accept this. Understand that you ARE placing additional responsibility by giving healers more ways to be offensive. I don't really think that can be disputed. We are really talking about two different things at that point. Because giving healers additional DPS responsibility entails a change to current content design. This will not be fun for everyone. If you feel like raising the skill floor is the way to go. That is fine. Just understand that is what it is, and it's an uphill battle because you and I both know the devs do not feel this way.

When I respond this way, is that me not listening? Not reading? Misinterpreting what's being said? By all means tell me if that's the case, and if I am reading into things incorrectly. In any case, it goes without saying that making healing fun for everyone AND across all content isn't possible. It's a very tall order because the community is diverse. And you know what? That's totally fine. Awesome actually. So long as the exchange of ideas and debates can be done in a civil manner.

Ultimately I feel adaptation is the key to enjoying healing in FFXIV, and it's difficult to say you're not enjoying healing if you're still doing it. This says you have a strong ability to adapt, and go out there and find things you enjoy. But even if you want to ignore that, the devs are the ones who make the final say and there really is no choice but to adapt to their job designs. And don't take that to mean to be complacent. It is perfectly fine to voice how you would like to improve the game. Just know that not everyone will agree with you.

[Liam_Harper]

I can't help but facepalm when I see gripes like this. If you are no longer finding anything engaging, I don't think it's the game's fault; I think you're just burned out. Don't take that offensively. It's not meant to be.

Whenever I read nonsense like this I facepalm too. We can facepalm at each other c:

I'm entitled to have preferences. I've never really liked dungeons, alliance raids or PotD ever since I started the game, so I haven't burnt on them, I just think they're bland, boring, throwaway content and always have. I still enjoy plenty of other content, great story, hard content is great, crafting is good, customization is good. Overall I like FF14. I just don't have strong preferences on their casual content. I think it's wasted potential that 4 man dungeons and alliance raids are solely limited to faceroll duty finder.