Dark Knight Megathread

[Ryaduera]

Oh my God, this is amazing! Why hasn't anyone thought of this before? Having Dark Arts tied to the Darkside timer is wonderful idea. Since the skill can only be used every 30 seconds, it alleviates the Dark Arts spam that plagued 4.0 DRK. And it also expands the use of the Darkside mechanic as well.

Seriously, why hasn't SE or anyone else here thought of this? Props to you Rosenstrauch. Oh, and your other suggestions are good too, but this Dark Arts rework is fantastic.

Because this wouldn't solve anything for the Darkside timer as an issue. The only way it could fall off is outright neglect, meaning tying something to 30 seconds of being under Darkside is just a 30 second cooldown with extra fluff

^ Unless the DRK were doing noticeably less AoE across the same pull sizes in the same leveling dungeon than other tanks would do at that same level... I don't see the need for Stalwart Soul so early.

You're inevitably balanced around getting your AoE-pt.2. That means, in effect, that you just have a weaker AoE-pt.1 (including its surrounding available AoE ppm via abilities) while being forced to backload each AoE cast with its requisite Part-B.

If hitting ABABAB were really that much more fun than AAAAA (and the occasional 12 strike to give the last MP boost needed for Flood, which is stronger than Mythril anyways), I could understand wanting to nerf Flood (and by counterpart, Edge) across levels 40-72 to make way for Stalwart Soul, but... is it, actually?

If you balance a job around something that makes the job feels bad, you still have a bad job, even if it is balanced. We aren't asking for a balance update, we're asking for interactive gameplay.

[Shurrikhan]

Because this wouldn't solve anything for the Darkside timer as an issue. The only way it could fall off is outright neglect, meaning tying something to 30 seconds of being under Darkside is just a 30 second cooldown with extra fluff

If you balance a job around something that makes the job feels bad, you still have a bad job, even if it is balanced. We aren't asking for a balance update, we're asking for interactive gameplay.

I don't see how ABABAB and nothing of value on which to spend what B affords is any more interactive, really, than AAAAA and a decent Flood.

At least with a decent Flood I have better AoE-downtime value, allowing me to bank for a large pull, whereas (still assuming starting from full MP) if Flood were more thoroughly afforded over uptime and nerfed accordingly, I'd have dealt less damage over the first 15 seconds or so.

You're effectively trading 3.3 charges of Flood, accelerated by a CD (Blood Weapon) for 3.3 charges of a weaker Flood that's accelerated both by a CD and, much more significantly, every other GCD. Do you want a greater amount of potency bankable and less uptime generation (which is equally greater downtime generation, relatively speaking) or less potency bankable and more uptime generation? That's all it comes down to. It isn't so cut-and-dry, DRK-got-screwed-again-in-such-an-obvious-way. The throughput is there and there's quite a bit more control and burst in DRK's model of AoE over those levels than on any other tank over those levels (save perhaps GNB's capacity for, situationally obligatory, focus-target damage).

So let's actually define what appeals to you in that interactive gameplay. Is it the uptime generation, similar to WAR's reducing the CD of Infuriate per BG spender (but in this case Flood via each SS cast, via MP)? Do we just want to see one skill being more dependent on another, or less of a skill's throughput being dependent on CDs or single-target (situationally damage)? What is the appeal of that economy?

I don't think there's just one right answer -- the appeal of this or that will have different product of the number of people it appeals to and the extent to which it appeals to them -- but if we're just copying over the other tank's models on the assumption they must be better and no more thought-out solution is worth the effort compared to slapping another's on more directly or earlier, we've already seen how that goes. Can't we at least think about this before demanding we have whatever they're having in the forms they're having it?

[Ryaduera]

I don't see how ABABAB and nothing of value on which to spend what B affords is any more interactive, really, than AAAAA and a decent Flood.

At least with a decent Flood I have better AoE-downtime value, allowing me to bank for a large pull, whereas (still assuming starting from full MP) if Flood were more thoroughly afforded over uptime and nerfed accordingly, I'd have dealt less damage over the first 15 seconds or so.

You're effectively trading 3.3 charges of Flood, accelerated by a CD (Blood Weapon) for 3.3 charges of a weaker Flood that's accelerated both by a CD and, much more significantly, every other GCD. Do you want a greater amount of potency bankable and less uptime generation (which is equally greater downtime generation, relatively speaking) or less potency bankable and more uptime generation? That's all it comes down to. It isn't so cut-and-dry, DRK-got-screwed-again-in-such-an-obvious-way. The throughput is there and there's quite a bit more control and burst in DRK's model of AoE over those levels than on any other tank over those levels (save perhaps GNB's capacity for, situationally obligatory, focus-target damage).

So let's actually define what appeals to you in that interactive gameplay. Is it the uptime generation, similar to WAR's reducing the CD of Infuriate per BG spender (but in this case Flood via each SS cast, via MP)? Do we just want to see one skill being more dependent on another, or less of a skill's throughput being dependent on CDs or single-target (situationally damage)? What is the appeal of that economy?

I don't think there's just one right answer, but if we're just copying over the other tank's models on the assumption they must be better and no more thought-out solution is worth the effort compared to slapping another's on more directly or earlier, we've already seen how that goes.

It's because you go in with mana full and then go 1-2-1-2-1-2- then run out of mana with no way to regenerate it in the pulls outside of Blood Weapon that you can't do every AoE situation (and even if you do, unleash is not effected by skill speed), switching to just 1- -1- -1- until you maybe have MP. It's not about effectiveness, most people agree DRK is effective in all content because the balance team is on point. The job feels like an absolute slog to play and the progression takes ages to get anything that would be called necessary to its playstyle, and then after it finally gets the necessities for it's functionality, it then gets nothing after that except for more noise. If you design a job around something that feels bad, you have a bad design. Part of the reason that the Unleash and Flood playstyle is bad is because of the big picture. Were this an independent issue, I doubt many would care since AoE situations in the endgame don't even really matter that much.

Even 3.0 lacked a combo to AoE with... but we did have 2 on global options with good mana regeneration.

[Kalocin]

I saw someone on Reddit suggest that TBN gets a two shields, 15+10%, and if the first shield breaks you'll get your free flood/edge. Either that or it gives you a proc at 50%. It wouldn't require much changing but would make the ability more functional outside of straight tank busters. Probably a better idea with a similar concept but something like that would probably be a good QoL

[Shurrikhan]

I saw someone on Reddit suggest that TBN gets a two shields, 15+10%, and if the first shield breaks you'll get your free flood/edge. Either that or it gives you a proc at 50%. It wouldn't require much changing but would make the ability more functional outside of straight tank busters. Probably a better idea with a similar concept but something like that would probably be a good QoL

This would be better... but at the same time, it'd also remove the main point of the mechanic. Not that I'm a huge fan of that mechanic, so... /shrug?

(Alternatively, have it grant MP proportionate to barrier consumed?)

[Kalocin]

This would be better... but at the same time, it'd also remove the main point of the mechanic. Not that I'm a huge fan of that mechanic, so... /shrug?

(Alternatively, have it grant MP proportionate to barrier consumed?)

Like I said, probably a better idea with a similar concept. You'd lose the flashy bit with the skills but even just getting mana back would be a better execution. The all or nothing approach if it has to be tied to a dps ability is probably the larger issue at heart

[Shurrikhan]

Like I said, probably a better idea with a similar concept. You'd lose the flashy bit with the skills but even just getting mana back would be a better execution. The all or nothing approach if it has to be tied to a dps ability is probably the larger issue at heart

Agreed. I'm fine with max reward only coming from max consumption, but I hate getting nothing despite having consumed some 80+% of that barrier.

[Ryaduera]

Agreed. I'm fine with max reward only coming from max consumption, but I hate getting nothing despite having consumed some 80+% of that barrier.

There is also absolutely no cohesion with the kit. Increasing ally defenses is good and does make shields better... but if you didn't use Dark Passenger or Oblation there then maybe that 1% that was left would have broken? Well, PLD gets cover and also has no cohesion with their kit since they get a lot of self healing. It doesn't even work with HG. This seems backwards to me...

Dark Knight, thematically, was a knight who dropped his shield in order to make better use of his sword to defend as many people as possible, but always knows you cannot save them all. Instead, our main ability... is a shield. You either need to provide a reward even if it doesn't break, or you need to ensure ways for it to break after all. I still think an AoE cover effect would be really unique. Standing near the DRK redirects damage to it (Damage cap being a percentage of DRK HP to ensure it never outright kills him) so you can use TBN on yourself and ensure it breaks.

Hell, with an AoE cover, you can make it apply its damage as a dot that matches the duration of TBN. It would be like divine veil, but edgy. DoTs are easy to deal with since shields and regen effects both counteract it very well and throwing TBN on when you aren't at full health means regen effects will top you off while you wait for it to break your TBN.

[Cithaerias_pyropina]

Wow, these people saying its fine for DRK to get their second AoE gcd at an obscenely late level must have not played Stormblood RDM. Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contre Sixte Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contre Sixte Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contre Sixte Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contre Sixte E.MoulinetE.MoulinetE.Moulinet Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contra Sixte Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contra Sixte Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contra Sixte Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contra Sixte E.MoulinetE.MoulinetE.Moulinet

/s Very riveting gameplay /s for people that weren't like me that liked that level of mind numbing boredom.

[Ryaduera]

Wow, these people saying its fine for DRK to get their second AoE gcd at an obscenely late level must have not played Stormblood RDM. Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contre Sixte Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contre Sixte Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contre Sixte Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contre Sixte E.MoulinetE.MoulinetE.Moulinet Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contra Sixte Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contra Sixte Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contra Sixte Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contra Sixte E.MoulinetE.MoulinetE.Moulinet

/s Very riveting gameplay /s for people that weren't like me that liked that level of mind numbing boredom.

Actually, what we're saying is it's ok to get part two of the AoE combo if there was something you could do with Darkside or with MP while at those early levels that requires literally any brainpower. You are angrily agreeing with a vast majority.