Mentor abuse DC on purpose

[Eien713]

I have been saying the same things about mentorship for years, and I think my arguments are sound, so I see no reason to change them. I have also addressed other viewpoints, such as a separated roulette for extremes. Without constant oversight by SE, and other aspects changed, the system just will never work out as intended, in my opinion. So, I think the best case scenario is for it to be removed.

The thing is, what I mostly remember about your sound arguments is that you want mentors to carry and teach people because that's what it means to be a mentor. You demand way too much of mentors and refuse to admit that mentors aren't supposed to pick up the slack. They're just there to support. And one thing that strikes me as a contradiction is when you say that you don't give unsolicited advice. As a mentor, one of the roles in the screenshot you posted is to give gameplay advice. I suppose you'd be ok(?) with a mentor following in your footsteps by not giving unsolicited advice (even though giving advice is part of their "job" and a lot of people don't even know they need advice). After all, you also do this, and this is admittedly a way to protect oneself from the "you don't pay my sub" kind of people. In this case, what would be the problem with mentors wanting Ex trials to be removed from the roulette to preserve their sanity and save their time? It's the same self-preservation mindset.

I keep repeating that you seem to attach a mentor's value solely to Ex trials and carrying people through them, when mentors do and can be way more than just that. I have no issue with Ex trials themselves. My issue is with the people who queue for them, whether they're clueless and don't know any better, expect these trials to be a faceroll and bail when it turns out they need to actually make an effort, people who don't look up a guide beforehand (which saves time and spares a poor mentor from typing), or people who don't read chat or just can't follow instructions for whatever reason (in the latter case, PF would provide them with a better experience). I'll gladly spend 1 hour wiping in an Ex trial if people are trying their best and making an effort (though I'd ideally prefer to be mentally prepared for this beforehand, but oh well).

TLDR: Why are mentors the only ones burdened with responsibility when it comes to Ex trials? Why do people overlook the fact that the people queuing for those trials in DF are a huge part of the reason why things are the way they are now?


As for your arguments about mentors not displaying an exemplary behavior, I agree with you that mentors do have to be more careful than other players about what they say and that they should try to be a bit more patient than the regular player.

I have also not advocated for the mount to be removed from mentors who have already gotten it, but for it to be simply moved to another means of attaining it.

I never said you'd ever said this, though I also don't remember you saying the second part (but maybe my memory is failing me, unless you posted that while I was writing this reply).

[Shin96]

-snip-

What you fail to understand is that no matter how you change this system, evil will find a way. Wether that comes in the image of a watering can, stronger and tighter qualifications, you name it. Though I do want a rework as well in all honesty.

The desire to help someone, without a second thought comes from good. How can you differentiate between a good and bad mentor if you have not suffered at the hand of a ruthless person? It doesn't matter how safe things will become, a sociopath will find ways to hurt, bully and ridicule people. In fact it's in their nature to seek authority and power to do so. When people decide all mentors are bad while attaching a stigma, the only ones who benefit are the rotten apples that cause it. If I was gone among other good mentors because I decided on that day people aren't worth it, who will stick it up to those on a power trip? Exactly, no one. No one left to defend, no one left to put a balance between things.

Life is tough. But for every bad thing that happens, you can be sure it will create someone that can counterbalance the problem because they are trained to do so through experience.

[Katie_Kitty]

There shouldn't be any rewards for being a mentor.

Pretty naive perspective honestly. Do you know how many people will bother with mentor roulette if you offer no reward for it? About 2 people maybe. Who's gonna fill those roulette parties then?

[SturmChurro]

Not to be rude, but that just sounds like giving up. However, humor me. If you want the system to be removed wholesale, why not just turn it into a Fill Roulette? No mentor status, no crown (maybe move it to some other icon reward system), where truly the "intended purpose" is just to fill empty slots?

I have given up on that system, as I don't see an actual way to salvage it. I wouldn't be averse to the roulette continuing to exist as a "fill roulette", that anyone could join - mentor or not. It'd probably get more activity anyway.

....

I don't demand anything of mentors, I simply would ask that they meet the expectations of being one. Giving advice, and helping others is in the concept of being one. As I said prior, I would like to expect as much as the game itself expects of a mentor. If a player doesn't want to meet these expectations, they can simply not be one. It's not a contradiction to not give unsolicited advice, as I am not a mentor. It is not expected of me to ever give out advice. I can choose to not do it, but I will if asked. I don't think mentors should give unsolicited advice either though, I think they should follow the same philosophy. If asked they should always try to provide advice though, that's the difference. As that is the purpose of the crown; to be someone to look to for advice. At least that's how I interpret that expectation.

For that matter, yes, it does protect you from some rude players. The ones who see this unsolicited advice as "compelling a playstyle" and report, the "you don't pay my sub" people, and the like. Though, I also personally don't like unsolicited advice, since I prefer to learn by doing, and I'd like to think many others do as well.

Again, like I've said, I can consider the idea of removing extremes from mentor roulette, as long as the mount reward is removed from it. In it's current state, any mentor who queues for the mentor roulette knows that there is a chance to get one. If they aren't ready to devote the time necessary to clear (or not), they can either not queue for the roulette, or leave it. By DCing, for example, this hinders the entire party, and may force others to leave due to this, and take a penalty. This is rude, and shouldn't be done whether one was a mentor or not. The reality is extremes are a part of the mentor roulette, seeing them as a punishment is not the right mindset, in my opinion. It's not hidden that one might get an extreme, it's known.

People might not agree with the reward being removed, but that reward is there to encourage players to try for a clear even if it's an extreme, and sure player behavior might make this an impossibility, but that behaviour shouldn't be coming from the side of the mentor. If this is the case, leave, or kick, and try again. It's not perfect, but that's the way it is.

...

No, I understand this completely. Which is why I have said over and over, that the best solution is for the system to be removed. I have only suggested compromises for the people who want to keep it in place, but I still think they are only bandaid fixes, and will never fix the core of the problem - except for SE oversight.

A 'good' mentor can try all they want to try and change the negative view of them in the community, but for every one good mentor, there will be several more 'bad', and even more and more, who join just for things like the crown or the mount reward. The compromises suggested, such as removing the reward(s) associated won't ever fix the problem, but it will lower the prevalence of it, no doubt.

[Eien713]

snip

The issue, as has already been mentioned, is that what the game "demands" of mentors is so vague and up to interpretation. So what you think the game demands of mentors isn't necessarily what the game actually meant. To me, it's really simple:

- A mentor is someone who should try to be a bit more patient with others than a regular player and be respectful.

- They provide advice and tips (not teach). For this point, I think mentors should give advice whether solicited or not. And by advice, I mean stuff related to gameplay. Mechanics are different since I know some people like discovering them on their own. I personally don't usually give unsolicited advice (unless I get really irritated), but whenever I did Mentor Roulette, I forced myself out of my comfort zone because to me, that was part of being a mentor. A lot of the time, people don't know they even need advice, so I can't expect them to ask for it (after all, back when I was new, I got unsolicited advice that I didn't know I needed and I was grateful for it). I sometimes got people ignoring my advice; other times people bashed me for it; but there were times where people followed my advice and were grateful for it. For the sake of that last category, I was willing to put up with the previous two when I came across them.

- Mentors are supposed to be competent players who are familiar with most of the game's content, so the party is guaranteed a person who knows what they're doing and thus won't be a dead weight. However, mentors are also human and make mistakes, so people should give them a break when they mess up a bit.

- Mentors support groups through content. Applied to Ex trials, getting through this content should be a shared responsibility. People come prepared, and mentors help them by not being a dead weight and by explaining stuff that people still don't understand or struggle with. Again, looking up a guide beforehand saves the party a lot of grief and doesn't waste the instance's timer.

- This last one is a personal requirement that I applied to myself but don't demand of others: Mentors should stick with whatever content the roulette hands them even if they don't like it (in my case, to the bitter end). I don't agree with mentors bailing immediately, but if they see that the instance is hopeless, I understand why they'd wanna leave. And by leave, I mean eat the penalty and not DC intentionally.

This is how I see a mentor's duty.


About the contradiction that I mentioned, it wasn't about you being a mentor or not. It's about people usually being willing to forgive behaviors and actions that they themselves do. So since you understand the reason behind not wanting to give advice, you'd understand why a mentor would also do the same and you'd probably let it slide.

[RitsukoSonoda]

Pretty naive perspective honestly. Do you know how many people will bother with mentor roulette if you offer no reward for it? About 2 people maybe. Who's gonna fill those roulette parties then?

It wouldn't really have an impact on the number of people that mentor to actually be a mentor. It would just get rid of the people like the ones everyone is complaining about that only want the mentor rewards and aren't even contributing anything positive to the system.

[Katie_Kitty]

It wouldn't really have an impact on the number of people that mentor to actually be a mentor. It would just get rid of the people like the ones everyone is complaining about that only want the mentor rewards and aren't even contributing anything positive to the system.

It's incredibly naive to believe this. People are not going to be running mentor roulette in remotely the numbers we see today if there is zero reward. Mentor roulette is relied upon to fill queues, so they will never do this.

[Misutoraru]

It wouldn't really have an impact on the number of people that mentor to actually be a mentor. It would just get rid of the people like the ones everyone is complaining about that only want the mentor rewards and aren't even contributing anything positive to the system.

Worth a try

I see quite a lot of people jump ship when EX trial pop up especially later one

EX trial are done via PF unsyn most of the time

Other than EX trial and Savage, all the content can be easily coach inside the run

We could have a volunteer mentor system, no actual reward, no roulette, just a list of online mentors which can only be seen by spout for them to ask question and assistance

Those who actually want to help could help, and weed out those who just want the mount

[RitsukoSonoda]

It's incredibly naive to believe this. People are not going to be running mentor roulette in remotely the numbers we see today if there is zero reward. Mentor roulette is relied upon to fill queues, so they will never do this.

They're not really filling a queue IMO if they're bailing out on a large portion of the duties in the roulette because they don't want to do it or I suspect in many cases lack the player skill to do it. So why have those people there in the first place to be a hinderance to everyone else?

The other route they could go is to create a larger deterrent to abandoning duties. Since a number of these mentors are just trying to express run their way to a reward, ban a player from being able to queue mentor roulette for 24 hours if they leave a duty as an example.

[Xirean]

They're not really filling a queue IMO if they're bailing out on a large portion of the duties in the roulette because they don't want to do it or I suspect in many cases lack the player skill to do it. So why have those people there in the first place to be a hinderance to everyone else?

The other route they could go is to create a larger deterrent to abandoning duties. Since a number of these mentors are just trying to express run their way to a reward, ban a player from being able to queue mentor roulette for 24 hours if they leave a duty as an example.

If they do it once it's 30 minutes. If they do it twice it's 24 hours. This suggestion is technically already a thing.