Smn Rework Suggestions After LL

[Rika007]

I think my biggest problem with it, is not sharing the same vision of what a summoner should be. In a more traditional FF sense, SMNs aren't actually casters that bring out an entity to fight by their side (a pet class) im guessing but rather a caster that channels the power of these entity.

I mean I don't know if that's really accurate, this new XIV summoner fits in perfectly with how FF summoners have been. Let's look at two of FF's most iconic Summoners (if not THE most iconic ones) Yuna and Rydia. Yuna is a primarily summoner/healer who brings out a big ass summon who does some big power attacks then leaves if it is defeated. The summons are very similar to demi's in that way, the only difference being the summoner takes the place of the party. Rydia on the other hand just calls on a summon, it comes in, does a super move and leaves. This is very simmilar to the new summon gems.

Hell, it makes it much simpler to develop without the AI, but the AI is what makes it unique.. wish they could have just improved it.. instead of removing it altogether. ...

The problem with this thought is... They have tried that. Literally for 8 years through at least 4 different reworks they have tried to figure out the pet AI and put it into a playable state that players have liked. And they have failed at each attempt. No matter what the devs tried, the players haven't really gravitated to a pet system that did what they wanted and expected of it. At a certain point if you cant fix a problem despite giving it your best effort, removing the problem entirely so you can focus on something new is a valid way of handling it.

[Ailuron]

I mean I don't know if that's really accurate, this new XIV summoner fits in perfectly with how FF summoners have been. Let's look at two of FF's most iconic Summoners (if not THE most iconic ones) Yuna and Rydia. Yuna is a primarily summoner/healer who brings out a big ass summon who does some big power attacks then leaves if it is defeated. The summons are very similar to demi's in that way, the only difference being the summoner takes the place of the party. Rydia on the other hand just calls on a summon, it comes in, does a super move and leaves. This is very simmilar to the new summon gems.



The problem with this thought is... They have tried that. Literally for 8 years through at least 4 different reworks they have tried to figure out the pet AI and put it into a playable state that players have liked. And they have failed at each attempt. No matter what the devs tried, the players haven't really gravitated to a pet system that did what they wanted and expected of it. At a certain point if you cant fix a problem despite giving it your best effort, removing the problem entirely so you can focus on something new is a valid way of handling it.

Fair point. I hope this is just one of the many (so far) iterations of SMNs until there could be some sort of middle ground for both types of summoners.

[Cabalabob]

this new XIV summoner fits in perfectly with how FF summoners have been. Let's look at two of FF's most iconic Summoners (if not THE most iconic ones) Yuna and Rydia. Yuna is a primarily summoner/healer who brings out a big ass summon who does some big power attacks then leaves if it is defeated. The summons are very similar to demi's in that way, the only difference being the summoner takes the place of the party. Rydia on the other hand just calls on a summon, it comes in, does a super move and leaves. This is very simmilar to the new summon gems.

Oh yeah and let’s not forget those famous parts where Yuna and Rydia started using meteor strike and dashing into melee range with their fire charge for the next 30 seconds after summoning ifrit to do his one move.

That is my issue with this new design. The thing I’ve hated most about SMN since HW has been trance. It was a bandaid fix for the janky pet AI to put all the focus on the caster. They started to move away from that with demi summons and I was happy with that, we started having decent sized pets using powerful attacks while also attacking in tandem with their summoner casting filler ruin spells with egi assaults (more pet attacks) between demi summons. Trance started to feel like the bandaid was starting to peel off and I was hopeful that for endwalker it would be gone entirely and replaced with more demi summons.

But the rework has gone in the complete opposite direction and put all the focus back on the caster. The pet is only there for a second followed by the summoner doing all the work while his carbuncle literally sits and watches.

Why couldn’t these new primals just work similar to demi primals? Just stay out and when you press the next attack button, instead of the spell coming out of YOU it comes out of the summon? There would be absolutely no change to how the job functions, it would be a purely aesthetic change that would make the summoner into a summoner rather than a discount black mage. And if screen clutter from the big primals is a concern, make it so they elementally enhance carbuncle and do the same thing with him.

In the end my issue is one of aesthetics and you can argue that it’s a minor gripe, but aesthetics are important. If they made black mage into a melee job that mainly attacks with their staff and casts one spell every 5 minutes, it doesn’t matter how fun to play the job is, or how viable it’s rotation is, any real black mage player would not be happy with it, because that’s not a black mage.

So...
Distracting from the argument over who deserves to be happy with the game....

Is it just me, or does the flow from phase to phase feel... off? Like the progression is backwards?

This did cross my mind but we’ll just have to wait and see on that front. When I have some spare downtime in endwalker I’ll probably start a new character and see how the job progresses from level 1 AND see how/if they changed the SMN job quests around the rework.

[Rika007]

Lot to unpack here so lets hit it point by point (had to cut down some of your post for the main points tho)

Oh yeah and let’s not forget those famous parts where Yuna and Rydia started using meteor strike and dashing into melee range with their fire charge for the next 30 seconds after summoning ifrit to do his one move...

I mean if you want to be pedantic sure, but if they only used JUST Rydia and Yuna's moves that would make for one boring as hell summoner. Of course other things need to be brought into supplement that. Lets also not forget that the trailer for FF16, a project Yoshi-P is very much involved in, showed the protagonist doing physical attacks enhanced with the power of the summon. So if you really want it traced to another mainline title, there ya go. But even then, parts of this new Summoner would need to be unique to 14, not a 100% copy of other games. I only listed Yuna and Rydia because their mechanics were similar.

That is my issue with this new design. The thing I’ve hated most about SMN since HW has been trance. It was a bandaid fix for the janky pet AI to put all the focus on the caster. They started to move away from that with demi summons and I was happy with that...

This is a lot of conjecture here, for many summoner players, trance mage Heavensward and Stormblood Summoner is there favorite iteration of the job (this also brings up one of the biggest issues with any proposed summoner rework, which is that the summoner player base has never been very unified in what it wants), and I don't think I ever saw the dev team come out and say, "Yeah we are having trouble with pets, so here's a whole new mechanic so we hope y'all forget about em." And I don't know how you can say they were moving away from trances, when instead many people were advocating for the Dreadwyrm trance system to get the same treatment as the Firebird Trance system. And It looks like that is what happen.

But the rework has gone in the complete opposite direction and put all the focus back on the caster. The pet is only there for a second followed by the summoner doing all the work while his carbuncle literally sits and watches.

You quoted me yet ignored my biggest point on why I think they didn't do it. They have tried for now what is only two years short of a decade to make the pet system in this game work, and have failed miserably on every single attempt. Pet's in this game are jank. They're borked. Screwed. Awful. I would LOVE a proper pet system in this game but I stopped trusting the dev team to ever give one somewhere around the Stormblood rework. That's why so many players were asking for it's removal and are glad to see that Carby sitting there doing nothing.

Why couldn’t these new primals just work similar to demi primals?...

I mean they probably absolutely could, but to me at least that would very much cheapen the power and rush of bringing out Bahamut and Phoenix. Summoner has always been about having a burst and when you play a burst class you're supposed to be building up to big moments where you unleash your most powerful abilities. Making them like Demi's would just make Summoner feel more like Black Mage, a more steady consistent damage dealer. Which there is nothing wrong with that, but I don't think that was their aim. Plus also there is the whole Bahamut/Phoenix have always been treated as special summons in the Final Fantasy lore, in XIV especially.

In the end my issue is one of aesthetics and you can argue that it’s a minor gripe, but aesthetics are important...

I agree entirely, aesthetics are extremely important. Why I feel that SE really dropped the ball on adding the extra genders for Hrothgar and Viera originally, on the lack of their hats and hairstyles, adding new primal and raid weapons for the new jobs, and also on just overall more character creation options entirely. But one big thing about aesthetics is they are all a personal preference. To me this Summoner has maybe the best aesthetics of any of the jobs out there, and judging by the largely extremely positive reaction most fans are giving it on social media, many feel the same. I'm not saying your dislike of it is invalid, I'm just saying they went another way on the aesthetics, but they definitely in no way ignored them. If anything they put serious work into them.

[Cabalabob]

I mean if you want to be pedantic sure, but if they only used JUST Rydia and Yuna's moves that would make for one boring as hell summoner. Of course other things need to be brought into supplement that.

Yes other things need to be brought in to supplement the summon having one big move, the problem is the things they bring in have nothing to do with summoning. In ARR it was arcanist as the “sub job”, in heavensward it was trance turning the summoner into another caster, Stormblood/shadowbringers were my personal favourites because they made it about summoning, the egi became that filler while the demis were the burst, but the job still had arcanist and trance hanging off it from ARR and HW. Now it’s taking a step back and going back to trance style gameplay rather than a step forward going towards more demi-primals.

I mean they probably absolutely could, but to me at least that would very much cheapen the power and rush of bringing out Bahamut and Phoenix. Summoner has always been about having a burst and when you play a burst class you're supposed to be building up to big moments where you unleash your most powerful abilities. Making them like Demi's would just make Summoner feel more like Black Mage, a more steady consistent damage dealer. Which there is nothing wrong with that, but I don't think that was their aim. Plus also there is the whole Bahamut/Phoenix have always been treated as special summons in the Final Fantasy lore, in XIV especially.

Not necessarily, again, even if they just made it so carbuncle was doing the attack it would make a world of difference, especially now that he literally stands there doing nothing. E.G. after you summon gemi Titan to use earthen fury, carbuncle gains an Earth infusion and will cast Earth clap whenever you cast ruin. Same basic principle as what they’re going for but now it’s actually related to summoning.

This is a lot of conjecture here, for many summoner players, trance mage Heavensward and Stormblood Summoner is there favorite iteration of the job (this also brings up one of the biggest issues with any proposed summoner rework, which is that the summoner player base has never been very unified in what it wants), and I don't think I ever saw the dev team come out and say, "Yeah we are having trouble with pets, so here's a whole new mechanic so we hope y'all forget about em." And I don't know how you can say they were moving away from trances, when instead many people were advocating for the Dreadwyrm trance system to get the same treatment as the Firebird Trance system. And It looks like that is what happen.

It’s not conjecture. They talked about it in live letters a couple of times but everything got drowned in talk about egi glams. However back in ARR they didn’t want to buff pets out of fear that it would be too complicated for new players and decided that they wanted to improve summoner by giving power to the summoner rather than adding more egi which were struggling due to various factors.

I also wanted them to give DW trance the firebird treatment, that would be moving away from trance, what they’ve done is not give DW trance the firebird treatment but made both DW and firebird a hybrid of demi and trance. Rather than removing deathflare in favour of having demi Bahamut using ahk morn, they have made it so we use both and then given us some equivalent trance move during firebird.

I agree entirely, aesthetics are extremely important. To me this Summoner has maybe the best aesthetics of any of the jobs out there, and judging by the largely extremely positive reaction most fans are giving it on social media, many feel the same. I'm not saying your dislike of it is invalid, I'm just saying they went another way on the aesthetics, but they definitely in no way ignored them. If anything they put serious work into them.

What they have that is related to summoning is great, I love what they’ve done, the gemi primals look great, their attack animations too. What I don’t love is what is NOT related to summoning, I don’t love the summoner charging into melee range and punching the enemy or casting deathflare. I don’t love carbuncle doing nothing. And it didn’t need to be this way, all of these attacks could have just been merged into moves performed by a summon and I don’t know why I need to explain why that would be more suitable on a job named summoner.

[ItMe]

It was a bandaid fix for the janky pet AI to put all the focus on the caster.

Good point.
Though I wonder if the changes won't allow us to finally have summons in PVP...