Healers Exist for DPS fun only?

[Roeshel]

Stop arguing with him, he completely misses the point of any information you throw at him. It's pointless to argue with him, because he just doesn't get it.

I'd swear he was a 14 Dev if I didn't know any better, such is his dedication to pointing out completely irrelevant information.

What information did you throw at me:

"We had DoTs"
"We had utility spells and we don't like that DPS and Tanks were given more responsibility in damage mitigation."
"We had, card system with 5 traps and 1 right answer that we consider more interesting because we don't like optimization"
"We could end up having more Asp Benefic casts than malefic because my co-healer is chasing world 1st"
"Look, I am not cherrypicking logs like you, I am only putting my logs and a speedrun from a time when AST had 0 raid-wide heals on oGCD. Also look, despite AST using more actions they had lower CPM than overpowered SCH, lower DPS and lower HPS. Ah, good times."
"We were constantly using GCD to heal, unless we are SCH, for that we use our WHMcurebot pet by micromanaging Embrace"
"Check me out I am so unique, I am SMN but with WHM DoT in my kit and WHMcurebot with free medica II-s as a healing pet"
"We no longer have to manage MP because we don't rely on GCD healing instead we have to manage cds of oGCDs. SE made healing boring."
"We lost WHM's DoT from our DPS kit. We lost our complexity."
"DoT I actually upgrades into DoT II and that into DoT III? SE ruined my job!"
"Before we had Nuke and DoT I + II + III. And we had a SMN with WHM light following them around and we called them healer. So much diversity. Now we have Nuke and DoT and 24 other spells. Everything is identical. We are tired of hearing otherwise"
"Shb made it so that I can have 100% offensive GCD uptime when I learn how to play but I think I exist for DPS players' fun only."
"Why is SE removing all of my DPS buttons. It was so much better when I couldn't even AoE in ARR. SE is disincentivizing healers to DPS with their class design. Return old healer gameplay now."
"We feel like second, no third-grade players because balance changes were finally brought. OPness was so much fun. How dare they."
"With Endwalker, they will remove our last two remaining spells, everybody, brace yourselves for what comes next. The great ruination is upon us."
"Why is nobody listening to our feedback?"

What did I miss?
Right, "I am trying to tell him SCH is identical to AST but he doesn't listen. Stop arguing with him."
"Comparison of Week 1 savage clears of each expansion is completely irrelevant information whatsoever. It doesn't indicate how healer jobs are actually played when optimized to perfection. No, it is more important how normal trials play like for healers when everyone is over-gearing them in duty finder."

[QooEr]

[Boizinho]

If you took the strawmen out of that comment, the remainder could fit on a postage stamp.

[NobleWinter]

The underlined is entirely incorrect.

SCH wins against everybody when it comes to oGCD healing potency per minute both in terms of ST and raid-wide.

Whispering Dawn - 531
Fey Blessing - 221
Indominability - 400
Sacred Soil - 600
That's approximately 1750 cure potency they and still have:
1 Aetherstack that can be used on Sacred Soil again which increases your party-wide oGCD healing potency to 2350 per minute

Recitation on 90s cd for an additional 600 potency(crit Indom) raid-wide heal or 1200 ST potency (crit Excog)
Seraph on 120s cd for a total of 800 potency party-wide, 400 as heal, 400 as a shield.
Dissipation on 180s cd

For ST they have Embrace with 2000 actual cure potency per minute. Not great for tankbusters but it is awesome for MT sustain. Fey Union increases the ticking heal by more than twice its value. Seraph does the same while summoned for up to 6-7 casts.

Wow, Scholar is the strongest healer in Single Target and AoE healing with oGCDs? That's not where I expected this thread to go at all lol. What an adorable train wreck...

[Roeshel]

What point were you even trying to make? The discussion was about the statement "healing while DPSing is the direction they wanted jobs to take," and QooEr correctly pointed out ways in which they've done the literal opposite. You simultaneously say that Scholar using fairy abilities while DPSing is overpowered, but then also count every single oGCD being used on cooldown in order to compare SCH oGCD healing to AST oGCD healing. Well, guess what? SCH oGCD healing has an opportunity cost (now). There's a valid reason to not use many of the spells you listed. For AST, that is not the case. There is zero opportunity cost on anything. They are effectively already playing the "cast Whispering Dawn mid-Broil" game while nobody else is allowed to.

That would be fine if every healer was designed that way, but SCH and especially WHM completely contradict the idea that healers should be healing and DPSing at the same time. SCH has a limited amount of windows to use oGCD heals without losing damage potency, and WHM has literally one every 30 seconds. SCH mitigates the DPS loss with Energy Drain, but remember that SCH didn't even have Energy Drain earlier in ShB. It was given back because they probably realized the job doesn't function without it. The only ability that WHM has that heals and deals damage at the same time is Assize, and it can't even be timed with actual raid damage unlike Earthly Star. And Earthly Star has almost double the heal potency for good measure.

All in all, while I agree that SCH was the "I do everything all the time with no risk" healer and that was bad, it's silly to hold the current situation in high regard for the same reason. You can't grandstand and say "oh boy, I'm so glad we're past the point where one healer can do everything, do it better than everyone else, and not lose any DPS in the process" because we're still there. Astrologian still fits that bill. It has the highest rDPS, the best "free" oGCD heals, the best GCD heals, the lowest opportunity cost on both oGCD and GCD healing, and the best mobility. If you're against having an overpowered monster of a healer then maybe look away from the version of SCH that no longer exists and look to the version of AST that does still exist. And if you want healers to be DPSing and healing without sacrificing either one, don't scoff at the idea of other healers doing just that. Either they should all do it, or none of them should. Having one healer that does it all is the worst of both worlds.

Scholar is doing that when it comes to AoE-ing. Not that relevant for raiding since there are no longer trash mobs there but still. It is not like healing while dpsing is not an already woven part of their playstyle.

WHM's remedy is the blood lily. Not a perfect solution to the problem, but it is better than anything we had before. It is pointless to argue that healers were remotely in a better spot before overall.

[Sebazy]

Healing while DPSing is the direction they have taken for healer jobs.

Correction: Slamming a 1 button GCD nuke whilst rotating healing OGCDs is the direction they have taken for healer jobs.

Not really wanting to bring freak world first runs into this as a yardstick for any kind of normality (I used Fretty's #2 run as the most extreme counter argument against my point to show how far things have shifted since HW). Nor is this the thread for healer balance discussion. Jobs don't have to be balanced to be enjoyable.

The reason why I dislike 3s cast time Gravity so much is that you can't literally play the job with 3s cast times. In between casts you can't draw cards, you can't apply them, you can't activate divination, you can't use any healing oGCD which means that if the regen is not cutting it, you would have to stop casting Gravity and I don't want to stop AoEing just to heal with a GCD other than regen especially at level cap. I associate it with terrible play. I have access to so many healing oGCDs in order to avoid using any GCDs for healing.

..... what?

Ok first off, why are cards even a concern here? If you're mashing gravity, chances are you're in a dungeon. It typically takes around 30 seconds from the tank planting to the bulk of the mobs dieing in most trash pulls (unless the DPS is absolutely awful at least). So again I state. Why care about cards? Deal with them whilst running, dotting and regening the tank as applicable. Once the tank is planted, it's time to drop the star and start mashing gravity. In most cases, pre regen + star + ED is plentiful.

Secondly, you can't activate divination with 3 second gravity because the two didn't exist at the same time

Thirdly, why do you have to stop casting Gravity? Just queue the ED and then carry on mashing Gravity. You'll clip sure. Welcome to a small taste of the horror that other healers have to deal with. Hope it's not too salty.

Embrace stuff

It's already been mentioned but I'll repeat for emphasis: Embrace is a shadow of it's former self because you can't control where it goes. Back when I was doing world prog in 2.0 both myself and the other SCHs in Solitude used all sorts of methods to funnel Embraces into the tank where it actually mattered. I've seen pedals, secondary keyboard banks, gamepad emulation ETC. Without that it's value is massively decreased.

WHM's remedy is the blood lily. Not a perfect solution to the problem, but it is better than anything we had before. It is pointless to argue that healers were remotely in a better spot before overall.

Again, back to the topic of this thread.

People don't look back at Heavensward because they think that healers were balanced. They look back at Heavensward because healers were so much more rewarding to play.

I wasn't happy with the fact that I couldn't viably play WHM for Creator Savage because I flat ran out of MP playing in the way that I did back then. But I'll take the AST gameplay from then over anything we have now. It had depth, finesse and variety. Now it just boils down to how many nukes I can squeeze out in 10 minutes whilst minimising everything else.

[Roeshel]

Correction: Slamming a 1 button GCD nuke whilst rotating healing OGCDs is the direction they have taken for healer jobs.

Not really wanting to bring freak world first runs into this as a yardstick for any kind of normality (I used Fretty's #2 run as the most extreme counter argument against my point to show how far things have shifted since HW). Nor is this the thread for healer balance discussion. Jobs don't have to be balanced to be enjoyable.

Back then you were lining up DoTs then nuking, stopping to heal with the classical GCD, nuking, line up the DoTs again.

Right now, it is technically a simplified version of what it used to - DoT-12xNuke-DoT because the method of healing actually became more diverse thanks to the abundance of oGCDs.

Jobs do need to be balanced to be enjoyable. OP jobs are naturally going to be more enjoyable which is going to cause similar jobs to be less enjoyable.

[FoxCh40s]

Correction: Slamming a 1 button GCD nuke whilst rotating healing OGCDs is the direction they have taken for healer jobs.

Not really wanting to bring freak world first runs into this as a yardstick for any kind of normality (I used Fretty's #2 run as the most extreme counter argument against my point to show how far things have shifted since HW). Nor is this the thread for healer balance discussion. Jobs don't have to be balanced to be enjoyable.



..... what?

Ok first off, why are cards even a concern here? If you're mashing gravity, chances are you're in a dungeon. It typically takes around 30 seconds from the tank planting to the bulk of the mobs dieing in most trash pulls (unless the DPS is absolutely awful at least). So again I state. Why care about cards? Deal with them whilst running, dotting and regening the tank as applicable. Once the tank is planted, it's time to drop the star and start mashing gravity. In most cases, pre regen + star + ED is plentiful.

Secondly, you can't activate divination with 3 second gravity because the two didn't exist at the same time

Thirdly, why do you have to stop casting Gravity? Just queue the ED and then carry on mashing Gravity. You'll clip sure. Welcome to a small taste of the horror that other healers have to deal with. Hope it's not too salty.



It's already been mentioned but I'll repeat for emphasis: Embrace is a shadow of it's former self because you can't control where it goes. Back when I was doing world prog in 2.0 both myself and the other SCHs in Solitude used all sorts of methods to funnel Embraces into the tank where it actually mattered. I've seen pedals, secondary keyboard banks, gamepad emulation ETC. Without that it's value is massively decreased.



Again, back to the topic of this thread.

People don't look back at Heavensward because they think that healers were balanced. They look back at Heavensward because healers were so much more rewarding to play.

I wasn't happy with the fact that I couldn't viably play WHM for Creator Savage because I flat ran out of MP playing in the way that I did back then. But I'll take the AST gameplay from then over anything we have now. It had depth, finesse and variety. Now it just boils down to how many nukes I can squeeze out in 10 minutes whilst minimising everything else.

He's going to miss the point again, no matter how fabulously eloquent you are Sebazy. :/

I really do miss the HW days, as the Healers were so deep, and no dungeon run was even remotely the same in terms of play. Now I can literally set timers on when to use abilities. Boring.

[Sebazy]

Back then you were lining up DoTs then nuking, stopping to heal with the classical GCD, nuking, line up the DoTs again.

You're missing debuff management, MP management, agro management, SCH's second GCD and fairy swaps and ASTs significantly more involving card meta at the very least.

Right now, it is technically a simplified version of what it used to - DoT-12xNuke-DoT because the method of healing actually became more diverse thanks to the abundance of oGCDs.

Look at what was needed to get a tank through a Coil T5 Death Sentence back in 2.0. You needed pre shields and Stoneskin timed to land close enough to the DS to not get wiped by an auto attack, you then needed to time a Cure II and Adlo to land between the DS and it's infirmity debuff so that the tank would have enough HP to not die to the auto attack following the DS. You needed a planned Virus chain. The tank would also need to be using a cool down. You could generally miss one thing and the tank would generally survive, if 2 were missed, the tank would usually die either to the DS or the auto attack straight after it.

Compare that to what you need for just about any savage tank buster now: A tank cooldown and an Excog, ED or Tetra.

Simplified is the understatement of the century sir.

Jobs do need to be balanced to be enjoyable. OP jobs are naturally going to be more enjoyable which is going to cause similar jobs to be less enjoyable.

No they don't. If this was true, why did WHM see equal and sometimes even greater usage vs SCH and AST throughout patch 3.4? It wasn't until 3.5 and the whole Zurvan Skip Soar comedy that it flat out started getting excluded from content.

This isn't a balance problem. This a pressing the same button 180 times in a single fight problem.

[NobleWinter]

I never realized how difficult it must be for people new to the game to extrapolate what the play experience must have been like before based on just logs and ability descriptions. Roeshel is trying their best to argue about why changes were made and necessary but it really falls flat when you talk to people who were there and used the kits and found the loopholes. Speaking for myself my enjoyment with healers has gone down since Heavensward. Even WHM with its new Lillies and Misery is less fun to me now than when I had Aero 3 on command. The visual was great and I didnt need to wait 90 seconds for Misery to be available. Fluid Aura could cancel aoes from mobs with its push and didnt build a stun immunity. The current Temperance buff was available much lower and made me "feel" powerful in earlier content becuase I could choose to use it when needed. I never cared for who was the top dps healer or had strongest healing tools. I cared about how many decisions I can make moment to moment and Shadowbringers has given healers the least in terms of meaningful decisions. Stormblood had a 30 second recast on Surecast which meant you could avoid a push or pull mechanic every time they happened. That is a meaningful choice we had access to quite often. Scholar had quickened aetherflow trait which means Aetherflow was 45 second cool down. It was basically just more Energy Drains for being aggressive but it was more choice and apm which got shattered completely when Energy Drain and the Quicked Trait got removed at ShB launch. The pace of the job went from blazing fast to a dead halt. The fact we heal and dps with more potency than ever before DOES NOT make these ridiculous kits enjoyable.