Healers Exist for DPS fun only?

[Roeshel]

If this doesn't clearly show that SE have taken healing in entirely the wrong direction, I'm not sure what else I can say.

Healing while DPSing is the direction they have taken for healer jobs.

HS AST A10S #1 DPS with nonexistant HPS output

CPM - 27.4
Malefic - 51.89%
DoT I & II + DoT WHM - 31,35%

Their co-healer: https://www.fflogs.com/reports/a:qMF...casts&source=9

CPM - 28.6
Malefic - 16.06%
DoTs - 20.73%
We have Aspected Benefic competing with one of the DoTs for cpm. It must have been hard carrying a deadweight co-healer.

SB O12S Part 2 World #1 AST in DPS with negligible HPS

CPM - 38.2
Malefic - 56.69%
Combust - 5.41%

SHB E9S World #1 AST in DPS with huge HPS output that puts them in the 99 percentile

CPM - 42.9
Malefic - 55.60%
Combust - 4.63%


AST has been receiving a steady increase in casts per minute with each expansion. They have been given more buttons to press within one minute. The end result that we can observe today speaks for itself. AST is the only healer that can optimize their DPS output while optimizing their HPS.

WHM undoubtedly is the best version of itself today. Yes, they did lose Aero III but they got Afflatus Misery instead. Players are no longer forced into GCD healing in order to obtain access to an oGCD. The whole point of an oGCD is to use that instead of GCD. SB WHM must have been detested.

SCH is the only healer whose gameplay actually degraded with Shb launch when it comes to raiding. It is the aftermath of half-baked changes that were most probably rushed. It is obvious that AST got the highest amount of attention for Shb changes.

Gravity was fine, I'm honestly not sure why you're hating on it so much?

The reason why I dislike 3s cast time Gravity so much is that you can't literally play the job with 3s cast times. In between casts you can't draw cards, you can't apply them, you can't activate divination, you can't use any healing oGCD which means that if the regen is not cutting it, you would have to stop casting Gravity and I don't want to stop AoEing just to heal with a GCD other than regen especially at level cap. I associate it with terrible play. I have access to so many healing oGCDs in order to avoid using any GCDs for healing.

[QooEr]

Healing while DPSing is the direction they have taken for healer jobs.

if their vision for healing was ACTUALLY "healing while doing damage", then why exactly did they make scholar no longer able to command the fairy while casting dps spells? scholar was the only healer that was able that get orange parse in both healing and dps. now scholar takes a heavy damage penalty from doing any healing whatsoever. if they had buffed ruin ii so that healing wasnt so much of a dps loss, it wouldve made sense; but instead they buffed BROIL and made healing a bigger dps loss than before. AST is the odd one out in shadowbringers. They are the only healer that can actually heal without losing dps, AND they have the most ogcd heal potency per minute with about 2100 hppm, which basically leaves them solo healing almost every encounter. If an ast in shb DOESNT have sky high hps compared to their cohealer then something is wrong.

Im not really sure why you're bringing up CPM. Sebazy was pointing out how healers went from using a variety of spells throughout the encounter, compared to now where a single ability can be up to over 60% of the entire abilities, let alone actual gcds, they use throughout a fight. AST is probably the only healer where its kind of justified to have such a barebones damage rotation since it has to manage cards and a plethora of ogcd heals. Your argument falls apart when you look at any other healer. WHM and SCH's cpm barely changed between expansions. healer CPM is also highly affected by the encounter, spell speed and gcd uptime so its not that meaningful of a measure.

HS AST A10S #1 DPS with nonexistant HPS output

CPM - 27.4
Malefic - 51.89%
DoT I & II + DoT WHM - 31,35%

Their co-healer: https://www.fflogs.com/reports/a:qMF...casts&source=9

CPM - 28.6
Malefic - 16.06%
DoTs - 20.73%
We have Aspected Benefic competing with one of the DoTs for cpm. It must have been hard carrying a deadweight co-healer.

i fail to see what youre trying to prove with this log. That ast was clearly padded and had about 75% uptime on the balance. If you want actually meaningul logs for high dps healers, pick a speedkill. Padding a player so they had a better parse was a common thing across all roles and isnt representative of how actual gameplay looked like.

Heres a log from one of my own e10s clears where the healing and damage disparity isnt like the obviously cherrypicked parse you chose.
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/compa...7,3&type=casts
AST: 26.8 CPM, Malefic is 32% of all casts
SCH: 23.8 CPM, Broil is 22% of all casts

And also look at this log of a10s from a speedkill. both healers had 99 percentile damage, and the scholar did the bulk of the healing through the fairy actions.
Notice how the astro got a lower healing parse despite actually using more healing actions than the scholar.
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/compa...7,2&type=casts
AST: 31.6 CPM, Malefic is 43% of all casts
SCH: 33.2 CPM, Broil is 34% of all casts

Now compare it to a log from shadowbringers. This is one of my e10s kills
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/compa...3,8&type=casts
AST: 38.9 CPM, malefic is 59% of all casts
SCH: 33.9 CPM, broil is 53% of all casts

So by your logic, ast has sooo many more buttons to press than in previous, and yet, even with a higher cpm malefic is STILL more proportion of the skills used in a fight, let alone gcds.

[Dogempire]

It's more that tanking and healing have been watered down in an attempt to make it more accessible to the average player, but people still don't want to do it because DPSing is less responsibility and has bigger numbers

Most people are fine with sitting back and letting others do the important work while they just help with the easy part.

Healers (and tanks) don't exist to make the job more fun for DPS, it's just that someone has to shoulder the responsibility, and the reason DPS is such a popular role is because there is no responsibility except to do damage, which tanks and healers have to do anyways

[FoxCh40s]

It's more that tanking and healing have been watered down in an attempt to make it more accessible to the average player, but people still don't want to do it because DPSing is less responsibility and has bigger numbers

Most people are fine with sitting back and letting others do the important work while they just help with the easy part.

Healers (and tanks) don't exist to make the job more fun for DPS, it's just that someone has to shoulder the responsibility, and the reason DPS is such a popular role is because there is no responsibility except to do damage, which tanks and healers have to do anyways

Then watering it down does nothing except to worsen the issue, as people who are just once in a whole terrible healing or tanking overall make the experience worse for everyone. You'd think they'd double down on making dps more fun, and making Healers and Tanks more complex to facilitate only people whom are serious about the roles making the experience smoother overall.

[Andyhunter12]

And this is the reason why i got to 80 and never played with my healer again. Its just NOT FUN and very stressful. You are basically babysitting everyone and for what? you get nothing out of it. I can imagine the tanks feel the same way. This game does Healers and tanks horribly!

[Roeshel]

They are the only healer that can actually heal without losing dps, AND they have the most ogcd heal potency per minute with about 2100 hppm,

The underlined is entirely incorrect.

SCH wins against everybody when it comes to oGCD healing potency per minute both in terms of ST and raid-wide.

Whispering Dawn - 531
Fey Blessing - 221
Indominability - 400
Sacred Soil - 600
That's approximately 1750 cure potency they and still have:
1 Aetherstack that can be used on Sacred Soil again which increases your party-wide oGCD healing potency to 2350 per minute

Recitation on 90s cd for an additional 600 potency(crit Indom) raid-wide heal or 1200 ST potency (crit Excog)
Seraph on 120s cd for a total of 800 potency party-wide, 400 as heal, 400 as a shield.
Dissipation on 180s cd

For ST they have Embrace with 2000 actual cure potency per minute. Not great for tankbusters but it is awesome for MT sustain. Fey Union increases the ticking heal by more than twice its value. Seraph does the same while summoned for up to 6-7 casts.

With Shb SCH became more complicated when it comes to optimizing HPS. The only reason SCHs are not using their healing kit to its fullest extent in raids is that it results in DPS loss. During week 1 when both healers are pressured to utilize their HPS prevents greater DPS loss by resorting to GCD the Shb graphs look like this:

Path 5.4 Week 1 E9 Savage
Both Healers are in the Hist% 99 percentile for DPS.
It should be noted that Auto Pilot Heals (Embrace) amounted for 3.5% of the combined healer HPS which is less than 7% of SCH's personal HPS

When you compare that with the HS log you linked, you'll see that the Scholar didn't actually do the bulk of the healing. It was the pet AI, spamming Embrace, making 40% of that SCH's HPS and was 22% of the Combined HPS.

Here is how HS Week 1-3 of A9S clears looked like for SCH:

Angered Static, Week 1 - Green DPS parse:

Embrace is over 32% of SCH's total HPS and less than 15% of the Combined HPS.

The same static, Week 2 - Pink DPS parse

Embrace HPS is 52% of that SCH's total HPS


The same static Week 3 - Yellow DPS parse

Embrace HPS is over 57% of SCH's total HPS and 26% of the Combined healer HPS. That's only week 3 when people are still not completely overgearing the content.

That's the state of healing everyone here adores. When people had a pet to do 1/2 of their job for them while they entertain themselves with SMN's spells.

SE BRING MY DOTS BACK,
Also, don't froget to buff pet so that I don't have to heal,
Also, don't forget to remove fairy commands changes so that I don't even have to weave

During HS SCH was no more than a SMN with a WHM curebot as a pet. Saying that SCH was OP is an understatement. More than 1/4 of what needs to be healed could be covered if you brought SCH to the party regardless of actual skills. I get why people would get frustrated when such an overtuned job receives balance changes. That job was so overpowered it is just unbelievable.

Healers during HS were so unbalanced. People seem to forget that OPness is not actually an identity.

When I said that SB SCH degraded upon Shb luanch, I said that only because weaving & healing is not completely DPS neutral and before it was. However, I am honestly not sure if not weaving commands was actually a balanced way of healing.


As a side note, during SB Embrace was still healing a considerate amount of HPS:
Patch 4.4 Week 1 O9 Savage
This is World first SCH in DPS Patch 4.3. Sounds strange to me since the release date of 4.4 was 18th September and the logs are from 24th of September, but it is what it is.
Here Embrace is over 10% of the combined HPS and 19% of SCH's personal HPS.

Shb week 1 clears had the most balanced version of SCH in terms of healing.

[QooEr]

embrace did so much healing in speedkills and high end groups because you could micromanage every tick to heal who you want. emphasis on COULD. if you didn't the fairy would just heal whoever it pleased just like it does now, but if you wanted to become better you would be actually managing the healing thought the fight. scholar had a similar skill floor to nowadays but it had the highest skill ceiling by far, and at high skill play it was the most involved a healer had ever been in actively healing the party

thats not "leaving the curebot pet ai do all the work". thats being both the curebot and the dps


you keep bringing up logs from old expansions to try to prove a point but you clearly never played in them since you thought cleric stance somehow affected already ticking regens and dots

[FoxCh40s]

embrace did so much healing in speedkills and high end groups because you could micromanage every tick to heal who you want. emphasis on COULD. if you didn't the fairy would just heal whoever it pleased just like it does now, but if you wanted to become better you would be actually managing the healing thought the fight. scholar had a similar skill floor to nowadays but it had the highest skill ceiling by far, and at high skill play it was the most involved a healer had ever been in actively healing the party

thats not "leaving the curebot pet ai do all the work". thats being both the curebot and the dps


you keep bringing up logs from old expansions to try to prove a point but you clearly never played in them since you thought cleric stance somehow affected already ticking regens and dots

Stop arguing with him, he completely misses the point of any information you throw at him. It's pointless to argue with him, because he just doesn't get it.

I'd swear he was a 14 Dev if I didn't know any better, such is his dedication to pointing out completely irrelevant information.

[Boizinho]

snip

What point were you even trying to make? The discussion was about the statement "healing while DPSing is the direction they wanted jobs to take," and QooEr correctly pointed out ways in which they've done the literal opposite. You simultaneously say that Scholar using fairy abilities while DPSing is overpowered, but then also count every single oGCD being used on cooldown in order to compare SCH oGCD healing to AST oGCD healing. Well, guess what? SCH oGCD healing has an opportunity cost (now). There's a valid reason to not use many of the spells you listed. For AST, that is not the case. There is zero opportunity cost on anything. They are effectively already playing the "cast Whispering Dawn mid-Broil" game while nobody else is allowed to.

That would be fine if every healer was designed that way, but SCH and especially WHM completely contradict the idea that healers should be healing and DPSing at the same time. SCH has a limited amount of windows to use oGCD heals without losing damage potency, and WHM has literally one every 30 seconds. SCH mitigates the DPS loss with Energy Drain, but remember that SCH didn't even have Energy Drain earlier in ShB. It was given back because they probably realized the job doesn't function without it. The only ability that WHM has that heals and deals damage at the same time is Assize, and it can't even be timed with actual raid damage unlike Earthly Star. And Earthly Star has almost double the heal potency for good measure.

All in all, while I agree that SCH was the "I do everything all the time with no risk" healer and that was bad, it's silly to hold the current situation in high regard for the same reason. You can't grandstand and say "oh boy, I'm so glad we're past the point where one healer can do everything, do it better than everyone else, and not lose any DPS in the process" because we're still there. Astrologian still fits that bill. It has the highest rDPS, the best "free" oGCD heals, the best GCD heals, the lowest opportunity cost on both oGCD and GCD healing, and the best mobility. If you're against having an overpowered monster of a healer then maybe look away from the version of SCH that no longer exists and look to the version of AST that does still exist. And if you want healers to be DPSing and healing without sacrificing either one, don't scoff at the idea of other healers doing just that. Either they should all do it, or none of them should. Having one healer that does it all is the worst of both worlds.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Late to this thread but just wanted to give my two cents.Personally i’ve always enjoyed healing in mmo’s. By healing i mean actually healing, where there’s a constant threat of the party dying whether it be randomized mechanics or what have you. 14 unfortunately doesn’t really support this because everything is so pre-planned and there’s very little randomization in fights which, sure it’s fine. The problem i have with 14 healers is for example, ShB. They stated they wanted to focus on healers healing more and that the fights this expansion would be designed in a way to allow this, yet, i haven’t seen anything different from previous expansions. If they aren’t going to design fights in a way where healing is a priority, then i would at the very least like them to expand on the dps mechanics of healers. Give them some kind of a mini dps rotation or at least something that isn’t quite literally spam one button for 90% of the fight and occasionally use an ogcd or gcd heal. As far as the whole healers vs dps thing goes, it’s very apparent SE cares more about dps than healers or tanks. They even said they plan to have at least one dps job per expansion added lmao. Instead of maybe taking an expansion to address the problem with tanks and healers they continue to dumb them down more and more. Keep in mind btw, they said ShB is the expansion they spent the most time on healers….yeah. Remember the entire shitshow of healers at launch? Sch with no energy drain. Ast needing to be buffed numerous times etc. Yeah that was them spending the most time they ever have on them which is incredibly worrisome and scary. Idk wtf the balance team is doing but if nothing changes in 6.0, i’m jumping ship.