The trouble with telling tanks W2W pulls are a mandatory norm.

[Goji1639]

Again you're trying to weasel out of something by semantics. You realize I never actually used the word expectation until you brought it up. Then acted like I use them interchangeably when I don't. Take your own advice and stop creating strawmen to argue.

What am I weaseling out of exactly? I said someone had a preference for super optimal play and you accused me of saying they expect it. You even JUST said I "act" like preferring fast runs means you expect them...

You were wrong; you're backpedaling and basically just repeating everything I say to you back to me. You're flailing and in a tailspin here; just admit you got confused about what a preference is and move on.

[Xirean]

What am I weaseling out of exactly? I said someone had a preference for super optimal play and you accused me of saying they expect it. You even JUST said I "act" like preferring fast runs means you expect them...

You were wrong; you're backpedaling and basically just repeating everything I say to you back to me. You're flailing and in a tailspin here; just admit you got confused about what a preference is and move on.

Stop acting like you're representing people in good faith. Someone shared a story of a person in a run "being lazy" and in that story defined this as non consistent behavior. You then say that player "prefers slow runs" which you can't verify based off that story. You simultaneously assumed what the poster wanted for no reason. I asked you why you made that jump and you said intuition which the poster even stated was incorrect. Then you continue to try to nit pick with them about it. When I again called you on it, you started jumping down this rabbit hole of semantics. You are literally creating strawmen to argue with people. You think I'm flailing when in reality I'm calling you out for what appears to me is a bad faith conversation.

Either way I'm done with you. Talking to you is like screaming at traffic and expecting it to move.

[BaconBits]

I am obv new, but even I have seen people ‘complain’ to the tanks for larger pulls. Never really realized it was a thing, since unlike most mmos you do not need to kill all the trash.

With the influx of BnS, WoW, Swtor and other mmo players coming in- where killing of all ads is usually mandatory in raids and encounters, people have not yet figured out that it’s not needed. These new players are racing through the game, so that they can keep up with asmongold- who is a streamer and can progress way faster then most. It may be why we are seeing more of this toxic behaviour.

We will see how bad the problem is with time, when other WoW refugees [myself included] will bounce from the game within 1-2 months time

While there are plenty of avoidable enemies in ARR dungeons, once you reach HW and beyond all mobs usually need to be killed in order to advance further in the dungeon. Enemies are linked to one another as opposed to roaming solo, and aggroing one enemy in a pack will cause the rest to aggro as well. Trying to avoid or ignore them typically just results in running into an unbreakable wall or barrier that won't disappear until all enemies are dead, or until you collect a key item... that drops from the last enemy to die.

[ForteNightshade]

No one demands slow, leisurely runs.

Oh, yes they do. Or more specifically, they use to. It wasn't uncommon to have healers ask for small pulls, refuse to even heal large ones and so forth. It's less common now because... the standard of "pull everything" took off. People more or less expect tanks to pop sprint and go nowadays.

So, if someone is playing reasonably efficient and optimal that's fine, but if someone is putting in too much effort and playing too optimally that becomes a problem for you? I didn't say you "expect" ultra effort I said you'd "prefer" it.

I feel like this community is really bad at reading and understanding words.

The irony is here astounding.

Nothing I said remotely insinuated anything you just said. You're strawmanning at this point.

If I preferred "ultra effort" as you put it, I'd do actual speed runs. Which typically don't even involve a healer. There is marked difference between that degree of efficiency and simply preferring a reasonable baseline. Anything beyond performing your role properly, i.e., decent healer DPS, everyone AoE's, tank rotates CDs, is gravy. I really couldn't care less, though I certainly won't complain if I get a stellar group that nukes everything in seconds.

It sounds like there was a lack of communication there. That's probably something that should have been worked out before you queued. And you couldn't bend or adjust your mentality even for someone you say was a friend? You have the mentality that anyone not taking the game as seriously as you do is making excuses but you don't recognize anything about your own inability to adjust.

No. It's about not wanting to coddle someone who literally only wanted to do the bare minimum for no other reason beyond "I wanna be lazy." There isn't an adjustment to be made because if I got into Tank Stance, I take a 20% penalty and lose access to Fell Cleave. All for no reason. Adjusting would be say, like my current BFF who asks not to let her HP drop super low because it makes her nervous. A couple extra Cure II/Solace doesn't really change anything. She's actively trying to improve her tanking, not arbitrarily saying "I don't wanna heal so sit in tank stance." It wasn't like I was undergeared either. I was full BiS.

I don't take the game seriously but simply enjoy focusing on high damage. That's how I find content fun. Sitting in Tank Stance for no reason isn't fun, especially in Dun Scaith where it wasn't remotely needed. Nice assumption though.

[Packetdancer]

SCH has the worst kit of the 3 for leveling.

WHM > Diurnal AST > Nocturnal AST > SCH

I feel like that depends on the level range. I actually find SCH at level 50 to have a more flexible kit than WHM, at least in high-end level 50 stuff like synced Coils. But by the time you're up at 60, I think you're right that WHM's got the better leveling kit.

But yes, it's a good thing to keep in mind that different jobs have different capabilities at different level ranges; at endgame everything tends to be pretty evenly balanced, but that's not always true prior to level cap.

[AnotherPerson]

I just stick by this creed:
New player in dungeon? Doesn't matter to me. The run can go at whatever pace.

No new players in dungeon?
Level 60 and below: Tank's new and learning. Healer could be new and learning.
Level 60 to 70: Tank's no longer new and has a couple of expansions worth of levels to get familiar with the role. Expecting a minimum of double pulls unless party wipes. Healer is also no longer new. In most cases, healers don't have to hardcast heals in single pulls to survive, so they might as well be replaced by a DPS.

Level 70 and beyond: Tanks no longer new, just pull as much as you can until you die. Not tank gets close to death so they stop pulling, pull as much as possible until you die. Then adjust if necessary. Healers also have 70+ levels to get familiar with the role and have skills that are more beneficial to use when the tank drops under a certain amount of HP. If the healer hasn't gotten you killed, then there's no problem no matter how low the tank's HP goes.

If the party is still doing single pulls in Shadowbringers dungeons, it means someone has either no clue how to utilize their kit effectively, or they don't realize they're burdening another party member by making their job more difficult. All in all though, it's just a game and death doesn't cause any losses. I also have no issues if the party isn't perfect, but I have no problem abandoning the party if I feel like the party won't succeed because one person is carrying all the weight and dragging the entire party over the finish line. At that point, there's no difference between playing with NPCs in trusts, except NPCs can do mechanics better than most players do.

[Nethereal]

I feel like that depends on the level range. I actually find SCH at level 50 to have a more flexible kit than WHM, at least in high-end level 50 stuff like synced Coils. But by the time you're up at 60, I think you're right that WHM's got the better leveling kit.

But yes, it's a good thing to keep in mind that different jobs have different capabilities at different level ranges; at endgame everything tends to be pretty evenly balanced, but that's not always true prior to level cap.

Versatility and flexibility don't equate to HPs.
SCH will always have a worse leveling experience because they don't have regens on GCD. The only exception is pre level 30 because eos can solo heal.

And synced coils aren't part of the leveling experience.

[Goji1639]

Stop acting like you're representing people in good faith. Someone shared a story of a person in a run "being lazy" and in that story defined this as non consistent behavior. You then say that player "prefers slow runs" which you can't verify based off that story. You simultaneously assumed what the poster wanted for no reason. I asked you why you made that jump and you said intuition which the poster even stated was incorrect. Then you continue to try to nit pick with them about it. When I again called you on it, you started jumping down this rabbit hole of semantics. You are literally creating strawmen to argue with people. You think I'm flailing when in reality I'm calling you out for what appears to me is a bad faith conversation.

Either way I'm done with you. Talking to you is like screaming at traffic and expecting it to move.

No, I explained I intuited a preference based on their actions in the story and you called me out based on you reasoning that I assumed an expectation. I explained that a preference is not an expectation, and from there you just kept doubling down on your incorrect reasoning until you left yourself with no option but to backpedal out of it.

Right now you and that other person are just being argumentative because you're too invested to admit you made a mistake.

If I preferred "ultra effort" as you put it, I'd do actual speed runs. Which typically don't even involve a healer. There is marked difference between that degree of efficiency and simply preferring a reasonable baseline. Anything beyond performing your role properly, i.e., decent healer DPS, everyone AoE's, tank rotates CDs, is gravy. I really couldn't care less, though I certainly won't complain if I get a stellar group that nukes everything in seconds.

This is just nonsense. First, you can't run roulettes with 3 DPS so that's not even an option.

Let me explain to you the concept of preference. If your options are a 15 minute run or a 10 minute run, and you're in any way inclined to favor speed, then of course you'd prefer the 10 minute run. I'm not saying you'd throw a fit at the 15 minute run, that's just your defensive take away. Stating you'd prefer an ultra fast run was a benign comment and not even necessarily the point of what I was saying; you and your sidekick were just made defensive by what you thought it implied, and now you've argued yourselves into a semantic hole and are trying to dig yourselves out. Seriously, it'd be easier for you both to just admit you forgot what a preference is.

[ForteNightshade]

This is just nonsense. First, you can't run roulettes with 3 DPS so that's not even an option.

Let me explain to you the concept of preference. If your options are a 15 minute run or a 10 minute run, and you're in any way inclined to favor speed, then of course you'd prefer the 10 minute run. I'm not saying you'd throw a fit at the 15 minute run, that's just your defensive take away. Stating you'd prefer an ultra fast run was a benign comment and not even necessarily the point of what I was saying; you and your sidekick were just made defensive by what you thought it implied, and now you've argued yourselves into a semantic hole and are trying to dig yourselves out. Seriously, it'd be easier for you both to just admit you forgot what a preference is.

No. You keep moving the goal post and insist on making a different argument. What you said in this post implies something entirely different than what I originally responded to. And now you're attempting to dismiss it off-handedly as simply semantics. Saying something like I expect or even prefer "ultra effort" neither had anything to do with what I was saying nor was it even correct. When I stated otherwise, you went on a nonsensical spiel, asking if I'd be upset over people playing too optimally. Which didn't make any sense given my response.

Simply put. You characterized your argument terribly, were criticised for it and are now trying to claim it was all semantics and we "misunderstood." It's disingenuous nonsense. But I'll leave you to have the last word.

[Goji1639]

No. You keep moving the goal post and insist on making a different argument. What you said in this post implies something entirely different than what I originally responded to. And now you're attempting to dismiss it off-handedly as simply semantics. Saying something like I expect or even prefer "ultra effort" neither had anything to do with what I was saying nor was it even correct. When I stated otherwise, you went on a nonsensical spiel, asking if I'd be upset over people playing too optimally. Which didn't make any sense given my response.

Simply put. You characterized your argument terribly, were criticised for it and are now trying to claim it was all semantics and we "misunderstood." It's disingenuous nonsense. But I'll leave you to have the last word.

This isn't as confusing as you're trying to make it. I made an offhand comment about you preferring ultra fast runs; it was one sentence Xirean decided to focus on because he thought I was implying that you expect perfect runs. From there I tried to explain WHY I used the word "prefer" and what a preference is, but it wasn't sinking in at all. Then from there you jumped in with a bunch of defensive assumptions, and now you're acting like I'm trying to back out of something I never said.

Seriously, this is just hilarious at this point. Admitting you made a mistake would've been so much easier than all of this.