The trouble with telling tanks W2W pulls are a mandatory norm.

[ForteNightshade]

People who require fast runs need to forcibly alter the playstyles of others, though, and that requires PF.

You oddly both acknowledged Daerilon's point and missed it at the same time. Like she said, and I agree myself, it goes both ways. People who demand slow, leisurely runs also need to alter their preferred playstyle if they queue into DF and everyone else wants to go fast. Otherwise, they're the ones who should go into PF or use Trusts.

Intuition. If they have no preference towards optimal effort and fast clears then lazy players shouldn't be an issue for them.

Well, your intuition needs work.

Being efficient doesn't necessarily mean "hyper, speed optimization!" Speaking for myself, I'm not fussed over a White Mage who uses a few extra Cure IIs instead of Holys I probably didn't need or a Paladin that Clemency's once in a while even if completely unnecessary. Wall pulling isn't speed running but simply moving the dungeon long at a faster pace because the mobs don't deal enough outgoing damage. It's expecting a decent amount of healer DPS and DPS themselves to properly AoE.

For what I said specifically. My point is I want everyone to put in a reasonably efficient effort. If you're queuing into content to get away from your screaming child and thus only want to spam heals without ever touching Holy. You're neither putting in a reasonable effort nor being fair to your party mates and should probably sort out your RL problem first. Whenever I do content, even if I've had a hard day, I still try to separate that from how I play because, well it isn't anyone else's fault nor concern my day is bad. I'm not going to turn a twelve minute dungeon into a thirty minute one because I wanna take things slow when they don't. If my personal problems are that bad. I'll do someone on my own.

[Goji1639]

You oddly both acknowledged Daerilon's point and missed it at the same time. Like she said, and I agree myself, it goes both ways. People who demand slow, leisurely runs also need to alter their preferred playstyle if they queue into DF and everyone else wants to go fast. Otherwise, they're the ones who should go into PF or use Trusts.

No one demands slow, leisurely runs. They simply put minimal effort into their own play; they don't tell you to slow down or care if you want to optimize. That's the difference; lazy players don't care what the rest of the group does, and that's why they don't need to use PF to force anything. You need everyone else to play a certain way to get what you want, though, hence why PF is the solution to your problem.

If lazy players are constantly getting vote kicked they may have to use PF, but they're not. If you could easily get a consensus to vote kick this kind of player you wouldn't be here complaining. Truth is most people don't actually care.

Also, can't do roulettes with trusts.

Well, your intuition needs work.

Being efficient doesn't necessarily mean "hyper, speed optimization!" Speaking for myself, I'm not fussed over a White Mage who uses a few extra Cure IIs instead of Holys I probably didn't need or a Paladin that Clemency's once in a while even if completely unnecessary. Wall pulling isn't speed running but simply moving the dungeon long at a faster pace because the mobs don't deal enough outgoing damage. It's expecting a decent amount of healer DPS and DPS themselves to properly AoE.

For what I said specifically. My point is I want everyone to put in a reasonably efficient effort. If you're queuing into content to get away from your screaming child and thus only want to spam heals without ever touching Holy. You neither putting in a reasonable effort nor being fair to your party mates and should probably sort out your RL problem first. Whenever I do content, even if I've had a hard day, I still try to separate that from how I play because, well it isn't anyone else's fault nor concern my day is bad. I'm not going to turn a twelve minute dungeon into a thirty minute one because I wanna take things slow when they don't. If my personal problems are that bad. I'll do someone on my own.

So, if someone is playing reasonably efficient and optimal that's fine, but if someone is putting in too much effort and playing too optimally that becomes a problem for you? I didn't say you "expect" ultra effort I said you'd "prefer" it.

I feel like this community is really bad at reading and understanding words.

[Xirean]

No one demands slow, leisurely runs. They simply put minimal effort into their own play; they don't tell you to slow down or care if you want to optimize. That's the difference; lazy players don't care what the rest of the group does, and that's why they don't need to use PF to force anything. You need everyone else to play a certain way to get what you want, though, hence why PF is the solution to your problem.

There are actually people who demand/request slow runs. Additionally something NEEDS to be understood here. Everything that everyone does in a run impacts the other players in the run.
Go fast: Have to play more efficiently
Go Slow: Spend more time in the instance
Don't do mechanics: Healer has to heal/res more often
Don't do combos: Fight takes longer or in some instances a wipe occurs
Don't use tank cooldowns: healer has to heal more

This can be more in depth, but people really need to understand that wanting players to have a reasonable baseline is not a bad thing. Acting as though going slowly is the default is simply untrue. Similarly acting as though going insanely fast is the default is also untrue.

So, if someone is playing reasonably efficient and optimal that's fine, but if someone is putting in too much effort and playing too optimally that becomes a problem for you? I didn't say you "expect" ultra effort I said you'd "prefer" it.

I feel like this community is really bad at reading and understanding words.

Thank you for describing yourself so succinctly.

[Goji1639]

This can be more in depth, but people really need to understand that wanting players to have a reasonable baseline is not a bad thing. Acting as though going slowly is the default is simply untrue. Similarly acting as though going insanely fast is the default is also untrue.

Never said going slow is the default; I said there is no default. Any DF group is 4 individuals with specific individual standards and expectations. Wanting players to have a reasonable baseline is pointless, because no one cares what you want. If you go into DF expecting people to care about your arbitrary standards then you're just going to get frustrated at the constant realization that you're simply not that important. It's why I keep suggesting PF if your "baseline" is really that important to you.

Thank you for describing yourself so succinctly.

Are you sure you want to go with a completely nonsensical "I know you are, but what am I!" here? Do you really not know the difference between a preference and an expectation?

[Xirean]

Never said going slow is the default; I said there is no default. Any DF group is 4 individuals with specific individual standards and expectations. Wanting players to have a reasonable baseline is pointless, because no one cares what you want. If you go into DF expecting people to care about your arbitrary standards then you're just going to get frustrated at the constant realization that you're simply not that important. It's why I keep suggesting PF if your "baseline" is really that important to you.


Are you sure you want to go with a completely nonsensical "I know you are, but what am I!" here? Do you really not know the difference between a preference and an expectation?

Right cause that's why most parties never actually communicate how they want to run through a dungeon and naturally fall into whatever pace works for them until someone goes outside of that unspoken range that people have. The very fact that you're trying to express "don't have a standard" is in itself setting a standard. I don't have to care if people care. Most people fall into my expectations without me having to say anything. The amount of times I personally express or see someone express a desire for the run to go at a different pace is laughably low. People also have standards of communication. That's pretty clear when you try to give someone advice and they completely deny it or even get angry at you. Some people's standards are simply to never be told what to do at all while others greatly desire input.

Also to your last point. Do you? You've consistently misunderstood peoples comments in this thread on that exact topic.

[Goji1639]

Right cause that's why most parties never actually communicate how they want to run through a dungeon and naturally fall into whatever pace works for them until someone goes outside of that unspoken range that people have. The very fact that you're trying to express "don't have a standard" is in itself setting a standard. I don't have to care if people care. Most people fall into my expectations without me having to say anything. The amount of times I personally express or see someone express a desire for the run to go at a different pace is laughably low. People also have standards of communication. That's pretty clear when you try to give someone advice and they completely deny it or even get angry at you. Some people's standards are simply to never be told what to do at all while others greatly desire input.

So you're basically just repeating what I said now; that most people don't care and there is no default. I never said you have to care that people don't care; just understand it. Creating drama in groups and on the forums about people being "lazy" is pointless and a waste of energy. If it bothers you then create PF groups.

Also to your last point. Do you? You've consistently misunderstood peoples comments in this thread on that exact topic.

Erm, you're the one who quoted my intuiting someone's preferences and responded with a bunch of rambling nonsense about their expectations. I'll repeat; I said preferences and you responded with "those aren't our expectations" So, I have to ask yet again, do you have any idea what those words mean? Is there a reason you're using them interchangeably? Would you like to look them up before responding?

[Xirean]

Erm, you're the one who quoted my intuiting someone's preferences and responded with a bunch of rambling nonsense about their expectations. I'll repeat; I said preferences and you responded with "those aren't our expectations" So, I have to ask yet again, do you have any idea what those words mean? Is there a reason you're using them interchangeably? Would you like to look them up before responding?

Because you act like preferring fast runs means you expect fast runs. Then when I called you out on it you started getting nit-picky about verbage and still are. People can prefer whatever they want and not expect it to happen.

[ForteNightshade]

No one demands slow, leisurely runs.

Oh, yes they do. Or more specifically, they use to. It wasn't uncommon to have healers ask for small pulls, refuse to even heal large ones and so forth. It's less common now because... the standard of "pull everything" took off. People more or less expect tanks to pop sprint and go nowadays.

So, if someone is playing reasonably efficient and optimal that's fine, but if someone is putting in too much effort and playing too optimally that becomes a problem for you? I didn't say you "expect" ultra effort I said you'd "prefer" it.

I feel like this community is really bad at reading and understanding words.

The irony is here astounding.

Nothing I said remotely insinuated anything you just said. You're strawmanning at this point.

If I preferred "ultra effort" as you put it, I'd do actual speed runs. Which typically don't even involve a healer. There is marked difference between that degree of efficiency and simply preferring a reasonable baseline. Anything beyond performing your role properly, i.e., decent healer DPS, everyone AoE's, tank rotates CDs, is gravy. I really couldn't care less, though I certainly won't complain if I get a stellar group that nukes everything in seconds.

It sounds like there was a lack of communication there. That's probably something that should have been worked out before you queued. And you couldn't bend or adjust your mentality even for someone you say was a friend? You have the mentality that anyone not taking the game as seriously as you do is making excuses but you don't recognize anything about your own inability to adjust.

No. It's about not wanting to coddle someone who literally only wanted to do the bare minimum for no other reason beyond "I wanna be lazy." There isn't an adjustment to be made because if I got into Tank Stance, I take a 20% penalty and lose access to Fell Cleave. All for no reason. Adjusting would be say, like my current BFF who asks not to let her HP drop super low because it makes her nervous. A couple extra Cure II/Solace doesn't really change anything. She's actively trying to improve her tanking, not arbitrarily saying "I don't wanna heal so sit in tank stance." It wasn't like I was undergeared either. I was full BiS.

I don't take the game seriously but simply enjoy focusing on high damage. That's how I find content fun. Sitting in Tank Stance for no reason isn't fun, especially in Dun Scaith where it wasn't remotely needed. Nice assumption though.