The trouble with telling tanks W2W pulls are a mandatory norm.

[Rinhi]

I hate quoting on this forum Rinhi, so I'll just respond this way I didn't mean dungeons or raids with making things easier, I meant duties you fail, or trials with the.. echoes mechanic? The game itself is helpful if you stumble. It wants you to succeed, to continue with the story. It's not out to make it super challenging in the content that is designed for everyone. So for better or worse, the game is ok with people not playing optimally.

I personally think it is so much better if a community is accepting of non-optimal. If it's not a big deal. Because effectively you enlarge people's comfort zone that way, instead of restricting it. People stop playing tanks and healers because they are scared to screw up. They are scared to make people upset and angry with them. And to then say "Good riddance, you were apparently not cut out for it" is a *beep* reaction which I do see happening. It's just a game, support people, have fun with them, laugh with them, forgive mistakes, forgive limitations, let it revolve around the people and the shared fun instead of the clock and 'optimal this' and 'optimal that', and efficiency and all that crap. Bleh.

I greatly dislike being a burden to a group, so I will always try my best, try be prepared etc. But I'd rather the atmosphere is such that at times you get people who blissfully unaware waltz in and have no clue, and that that is ok, part of the random 'no idea what I'm signing up for, yolo', than that everyone can only join in if they perform up to standards other players set. If you do that in your FC, in PF, in your raids obviously that is fine. But we're talking DF here afaik. And then it should be ok for people to play at their comfort levels, instead of yours.

I feel you with the quoting, sadly the forum software is archaic and annoying to use and it's missing important features like PMs
I know you meant the Echoes mechanic, but that also furthers my point; instead of trying to teach the player to play at a higher level, the game just lowers it's difficulty, in content that should NOT be lowered in difficulty because it's already very easy

the community IS accepting of non-optimal play, even the 'tryhard raiders' this forum loves to endlessly rag on (not you, just saying in general), but what """"we"""" don't like is people making excuses for people they don't know and haven't played with just because "they have to", because those 'tryhard raiders' are bad and from WoW and toxic and all that, even when all they do is give out advice and complain on the forums about someone being toxic in return and just continue to do the dungeon/raid/trial with the person that was toxic to them without a word

as I said before, I'd say go look for the threads that were created around similar topics and see how the discussion usually always resulted in a certain group of people needlessly attacking the other group because the latter wants people to get better and actually tries to help people get better, but the forum search is downright abhorrent so I wouldn't blame you for not doing that! (though you could find some of them if you go through my post history, but that's 450 messages or so :P)

like, when I started out, I was one of those bad players I "complain" about now, I didn't know the rotation of monk and didn't care, I spammed cure 2 and medica 2 even if everyone was at full health and never used my OCGDs and guess what? I got tons of commendations for playing like that, even if it was objectively bad, so I thought I was the greatest in the world until my friends showed me just how bad I was doing, sometimes even less DPS than the healer or tank in dungeons where I really shouldn't be doing less damage than either (unless GNB because that's broken between 60 and 70)

I never got any advice from anyone, even if I did 0 damage as a healer and that was after I had already maxed out a class, no idea how many dungeons I made take wayyyyy longer than they needed to be by doing that - and the community enables this, no, forces this by hiding behind this fake niceness towards bad players as it can be seen on the forums, where you get attacked for wanting people to put in some effort to learn their class, something which I didn't do

"Because effectively you enlarge people's comfort zone that way, instead of restricting it"

but that's exactly what enabling single pulling in leveling dungeons is, those tanks will just learn bad habits that way, the same way single pulling will form bad habits in healers and dpses as well. enlarging your comfort zone would entail that those players would actually try to pull bigger, but once they feel comfortable, you know very well that they won't change because 'it worked before so it will work now' until they get a reality check and will most likely blame everyone but themselves because those bad habits have formed over dozens of hours of playtime, enforced by a dozen of other players who either formed the same habits or who are too scared to speak up

tanking was so easy that, even though I didn't know how to play either a dps or healer 'properly', I could immediately pick up and after the first few big pulls I made turned out fine, the "tankxiety" went away and was replaced with feeling indestructible - but those tankxious players don't usually even attempt to pull big, nor do they use cooldowns, in my experience

edit: I apologize again for my word salad, I don't know what the enter button does and sometimes go off on a tangent when trying to make a point, so please bear with that

[Illmaeran]

Not everyone can improve. Not everyone wants to improve. Some are new. Some have returned after a long break. Some people will burn all that motivation on their job already and just want to log on and not get more hassle thrown their way. Some are a bit older and don't have the best reflexes (anymore). Some are tired cause they have small children, a demanding job, a migraine. Some suffer from anxiety, depression, you name it, and are not feeling at their best. Applying more pressure isn't necessarily going to help, isn't always going to magically improve their performance. They may be perfectly comfortable with where they are at. And the game respects this, very much. So if players defend the right to play at your comfort level, whether it's for themselves or others, I simply see them respecting the spirit of the game.

Agreed! I quit the game back in early Stormblood because I was going through seriously intense chemotherapy and couldn't get past the SOLO DUTY in the Azim Steppes. I just simply couldn't physically or mentally do it, period. After weeks of trying, and trying to enjoy the other things the game offers for solo players, I gave up and quit; realizing I wouldn't be able to make any more meaningful progress due to some significant limitations outside of my control. There was absolutely no way in hell I was going to try doing group content and deal with the backlash.

Was I eventually able to get past that point at a later date? Yeah, two years later when ShB dropped. I still have reflex and "slow brain" issues so most group content is out pretty much for good. Do I want to improve? Yes! Will I be able to improve? To a point, yes, but I know it won't be to a level that most people expect a "good" player to be at. What's the most sad thing is I'll never be able to play my WHM or PLD jobs again, or level up another healer/tank job due to the backlash I'd get.





You're not a sprout and your returnee flower's gone? You've got a level 60+ and 80? Your PLD and WHM are at 50+? WTF aren't you W2W pulling or keeping the whole party alive through it? *Because I haven't played a tank or healer since late 2015*. Level doesn't mean everything nor does it indicate a player's ability; especially in an older game like this one.

You don't like that your tank isn't pulling everything and is taking up too much of your time? Feel free to leave the duty and find another group. Don't want to leave and get a penalty? Be quiet and finish the run. General Consumption content in this game was intentionally designed to be less intense than in other games. That's just how it is and how it will be. "Good" is relative and if someone isn't "good" enough for you, find a static, lS, or PF group that does things the way you prefer.

[Xirean]

Agreed! I quit the game back in early Stormblood because I was going through seriously intense chemotherapy and couldn't get past the SOLO DUTY in the Azim Steppes. I just simply couldn't physically or mentally do it, period. After weeks of trying, and trying to enjoy the other things the game offers for solo players, I gave up and quit; realizing I wouldn't be able to make any more meaningful progress due to some significant limitations outside of my control. There was absolutely no way in hell I was going to try doing group content and deal with the backlash.

Was I eventually able to get past that point at a later date? Yeah, two years later when ShB dropped. I still have reflex and "slow brain" issues so most group content is out pretty much for good. Do I want to improve? Yes! Will I be able to improve? To a point, yes, but I know it won't be to a level that most people expect a "good" player to be at. What's the most sad thing is I'll never be able to play my WHM or PLD jobs again, or level up another healer/tank job due to the backlash I'd get.





You're not a sprout and your returnee flower's gone? You've got a level 60+ and 80? Your PLD and WHM are at 50+? WTF aren't you W2W pulling or keeping the whole party alive through it? *Because I haven't played a tank or healer since late 2015*. Level doesn't mean everything nor does it indicate a player's ability; especially in an older game like this one.

You don't like that your tank isn't pulling everything and is taking up too much of your time? Feel free to leave the duty and find another group. Don't want to leave and get a penalty? Be quiet and finish the run. General Consumption content in this game was intentionally designed to be less intense than in other games. That's just how it is and how it will be. "Good" is relative and if someone isn't "good" enough for you, find a static, lS, or PF group that does things the way you prefer.

You could also just try telling your party that you need to go slow. Hell you could tell every party that you are returning or new or whatever and most of the time they will just accept that.

If you popped into my party and requested in chat to go slow for nearly any reason, I would. Because it was stated and not assumed.

[TaleraRistain]

> Gets into leveling dungungeon
> tank is not sprout
> dungeon is not one of the exceptions for big pulls
> tank proceeds to do single pulls
> check tank profile and find out they have 3 jobs at max level
Why does this happen?

Any number of reasons. Maybe they're with the healer and they know the healer can't handle it. Maybe they're with the dps and they know the dps can't handle it. Maybe they know they don't have things quite down pat themselves mitigation wise so they're pulling within their limits. Maybe they're doing small to gauge the group's overall ability. Maybe they're tired. Maybe they have a kid screaming at them. Maybe they just want to chill after work. Nobody else is behind the screen with them or in their head, so any answer would just be a guess.

What is it really hurting to make adjustments in our play style to make the run go as smooth as possible with the makeup of the group that we get? Our ego?

[RitsukoSonoda]

Why does this thread make me want to pull not 1 group at a time but 1 monster at a time? Though I could argue that doing that requires more skill than doing large pulls because of mob linkage... >.>

[Nyxs]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I perceive it very differently. I think the game itself is extremely welcoming and friendly to anyone. It does not discriminate when it comes to ability, motivation etc. If content is too hard for you, they'll make it easier for you one way or another. So in essence, the game itself promotes a relaxed mindset, personally I find that refreshing. If you want a real challenge, you have to go look for it and find likeminded people, which imo is an elegant solution.

Not everyone can improve. Not everyone wants to improve. Some are new. Some have returned after a long break. Some people will burn all that motivation on their job already and just want to log on and not get more hassle thrown their way. Some are a bit older and don't have the best reflexes (anymore). Some are tired cause they have small children, a demanding job, a migraine. Some suffer from anxiety, depression, you name it, and are not feeling at their best.

If people are not feeling up for playing or have a RL issue which is impeding on them being able to perform in group content then they should logoff instead of slowing down the party. People may not pay other’s sub but they pay their own and want to be able to play with the time they can.

[Artemiz]

I honestly think a lot of the conflict here boils down to empathy, and I dont mean that in an insulting way. I used to be a professional driving instructor and the first epiphany I had once I'd qualified was I needed to develop more empathy in order to understand why my pupils were struggling with skills I had thought very simple. A typical example would be driving in a straight line, seems like the most simple thing in the world but for more learners than you would expect it was quite difficult to learn and they would drive like they were in a 1950's movie, constantly correcting the car all the time and weaving. I had one pupil who took about 6 lessons before she could finally get her head around the steering lock and start the car without my assistance. These people weren't stupid, and they didn't go on to be bad drivers, people just learn different things at different rates.

I see this everywhere now and tanking is definitely one area. Some people just need more time and experience, it doesn't mean they will be bad tanks after they have earned that experience. This is why I really dislike arbitrary stances such as you should pull big in ARR, of if you're not W2W pulling in 60+ content you are hurting the group and should quit. My professional expertise informs me that this is nonsense, its not how the human brain works and its not how people improve. Each person is individual, and needs to be treated as such

[van_arn]

I honestly think a lot of the conflict here boils down to empathy, and I dont mean that in an insulting way. I used to be a professional driving instructor and the first epiphany I had once I'd qualified was I needed to develop more empathy in order to understand why my pupils were struggling with skills I had thought very simple. A typical example would be driving in a straight line, seems like the most simple thing in the world but for more learners than you would expect it was quite difficult to learn and they would drive like they were in a 1950's movie, constantly correcting the car all the time and weaving. I had one pupil who took about 6 lessons before she could finally get her head around the steering lock and start the car without my assistance. These people weren't stupid, and they didn't go on to be bad drivers, people just learn different things at different rates.

I see this everywhere now and tanking is definitely one area. Some people just need more time and experience, it doesn't mean they will be bad tanks after they have earned that experience. This is why I really dislike arbitrary stances such as you should pull big in ARR, of if you're not W2W pulling in 60+ content you are hurting the group and should quit. My professional expertise informs me that this is nonsense, its not how the human brain works and its not how people improve. Each person is individual, and needs to be treated as such

Cool, I can assure you every vote kick I run across is handled with the greatest care and only those I just don’t want to spend time with on a team are dismissed.

[TaleraRistain]

If people are not feeling up for playing or have a RL issue which is impeding on them being able to perform in group content then they should logoff instead of slowing down the party. People may not pay other’s sub but they pay their own and want to be able to play with the time they can.

If time is that limited, then why aren't they taking measures to make sure they can control all the factors to preserve that time by forming a premade group? Then there is nothing unexpected that may happen to eat into that time.

Unexpected things happen in Duty Finder. I had someone the other night who had to afk for a few minutes because their child had a nightmare. We went on to finish the dungeon with just a small delay. I had another where our tank DC'd right before a final boss and it took time to get a new one. Not to mention the possibility of new people who could slow things down with inexperience. There's no way to predict or control what might happen in a random matching system. Not everyone will have access to a premade, but at that point the person using Duty Finder should be aware of the potential for completely unexpected circumstances.

[Artemiz]

Cool, I can assure you every vote kick I run across is handled with the greatest care and only those I just don’t want to spend time with on a team are dismissed.

You've been trying so hard to look like an Internet tough guy in this thread its cute honestly. Its like looking at a Teddy bear with an angry face. I doubt its the image you're going for, but it is the one your actually achieving.