Red Mage: Potential adjustments

[Gruntler]

sword & spell hybrid

Show me a game in the series where RDM's melee attacks were a real 'thing' vs just 'they can use a weapon and their attack isn't completely useless. They weren't even that great at melee in FF1!

It's clear though their inspiration is from FF5's design, where RDM was more about spamming spells fast than being a stabwizard. (Contrast with Mystic Knight, the actual 'melee and magic job')

what one finds "fun" may not be "fun" to others.

And the argument isn't 'fun', it's in unnecessary convolution. The BGoT problem isn't one of 'fun', it's of annoying convolution. Turning RDM into a melee doesn't make it a better fit for the role it has, it makes it unnecessarily convoluted (and is detrimental to its place in savage content)

When I look at proposed changes, I look at how it's going to change how I do content. I look at things like Light Rampant, or Add Phase in E8S. I look at how this would feel trying to deal with hard mechanics--and a lot of it does not assist that.

RDM doesn't need a DoT to manage, because that doesn't help its gameplay. RDM doesn't need scuffed balance guage add-on, because that doesn't help its gameplay. RDM doesn't need a 6th burst combo, because that doesn't help its gameplay.

Instead, look at what painpoints actually exist in the class that are universal (not just 'I want a gish so change RDM to cater to me only') but things everyone agrees affect the job.

1) RDM needs a defensive cooldown other than Addle. If that 'something' is 'Titan-egi is deleted and manawall is now a role action' I'd be happy with that.

2) RDM could use (but not necessarily needs) a way to get out of the situation where it's overproc'd going into melee.

3) Maybe a resource that builds off your physical ogcds, that you can spend on a physical attack, kinda like a RDM-variation of Shoha. It'd do big potency and it'd look cool.

4) A nerfed version of Lost Chaincast, that ability is an RDM classic and way too damn fun. That's your level 90 keystone right there.

5) Upgrading Verthunder and Veraero in a trait at EW launch instead of waiting for patches that end up just doing that anyways... again.

[ICountFrom0]

RDM ... manawall

Chaincast, that ability is an RDM classic ... level 90 keystone

Upgrading Verthunder and Veraero in a trait

RDM with chaincast at 90, that would be so tasty.

And yes, it would only make sense that the mage that gets up close and personal sometimes, would want a touch of defence somehow, manawall or a reskin of it sounds wonderful.

[Kalaam]

Show me a game in the series where RDM's melee attacks were a real 'thing' vs just 'they can use a weapon and their attack isn't completely useless.

FF12 if I recall ?
But clearly this isn't the inspiration.

[Beddict]

FF12 if I recall ?
But clearly this isn't the inspiration.

Eh, kinda-ish. The Red Battlemage Job Board is very heavily focused on Magic, namely Black Magic, White Magic, and a hell of a lot of Magick Lore to increase the strength of their spells. They get some other minor magic, like a bit of Green Magic (particularly Oil because it makes Ardor go boom) and Time Magic, as well as a few Battle Lore to boost physical damage, but it's intended to be a spellcaster. A popular Job combination does have it getting paired with the Shikari which makes it an incredibly strong Tank (equip Main Gauche for +50 Evasion, equip a Shield for more Evasion, cast Protect, laugh when enemies can't hit you), so it does get played in Melee if you go with that pairing. Either way, Red Battlemage by itself, ignoring Job combinations, is primarily a spellcaster.

[Kalaam]

Eh, kinda-ish. The Red Battlemage Job Board is very heavily focused on Magic, namely Black Magic, White Magic, and a hell of a lot of Magick Lore to increase the strength of their spells. They get some other minor magic, like a bit of Green Magic (particularly Oil because it makes Ardor go boom) and Time Magic, as well as a few Battle Lore to boost physical damage, but it's intended to be a spellcaster. A popular Job combination does have it getting paired with the Shikari which makes it an incredibly strong Tank (equip Main Gauche for +50 Evasion, equip a Shield for more Evasion, cast Protect, laugh when enemies can't hit you), so it does get played in Melee if you go with that pairing. Either way, Red Battlemage by itself, ignoring Job combinations, is primarily a spellcaster.

Thanks, I'll try that build next time I reinstall the game.

[Shurrikhan]

And so we bring the subjective back into the discussion instead of discussing changes to the design.

When the perceived problem is, effectively, that it's a DoT, there's only so many changes to the DoT that are worth discussing. As is, we've already spent, what, 4 posts on the criteria for milking appreciable value out of a DoT. The detail-work has been done about as much as it can be done when the basic idea itself is what's turning people off.

And let's stop using "subjective" as a byword for unactionably ambiguous or the like. At the end of the day, job design should attempt to capitalize on what's subjective. The job has appealed to the group of players who have enjoyed it for subjective reasons. That doesn't mean we can't, to some significant-even-if-not-comprehensive degree, figure out what those reasons were and keep those in mind as not to shit on its veteran players even as we try to figure out how we could draw in adjacent groups (those who'd enjoy the job if only it had X or was a little more Y or didn't have Z -- all, at the end of the day, for subjective reasons).

PS: You know what's not fun to me? Seeing the sword & spell hybrid of the FF series spam magic most of the time. Since RDM is currently designed around only swinging its sword once an arbitrary resource milestone is achieved during gameplay (something I hope changes in the future), anything that reduces the number of GCDs spent spamming magic means the part I enjoy will happen more often. Of course, there are some issues that need to be hammered out related to this, on top of addressing how what one finds "fun" may not be "fun" to others. See why trying to use "fun" as an argument leads nowhere?

It literally just led somewhere. You drew, even if not terribly precisely, a criteria for success and pointed out where RDM has, on the whole, fallen short in that criteria. The value of that criteria is subjective, of course, but that doesn't make it irrelevant. RDM's sword being a mere ornamental liability seems a pretty damn valid complaint. It's subjective, since the value of that criteria as it affects one's enjoyment, will vary, but the only way for it to be irrelevant is to divorce any such criteria from what is fun.

It's job design. It's meant to fulfill different subjective preferences. That's why we have multiple jobs per role and also why people so often get offended when they get homogenized (even beyond the issues of one job inevitably receiving the "basically the same, but better" skills in that process).

[Shurrikhan]

Instead, look at what painpoints actually exist in the class that are universal (not just 'I want a gish so change RDM to cater to me only') but things everyone agrees affect the job.

Here's hoping it doesn't turn into a homogenization "give me all the capacities to equal degree" checklist, as so many other jobs' "pain points" lists are wont to do...

1) RDM needs a defensive cooldown other than Addle. If that 'something' is 'Titan-egi is deleted and manawall is now a role action' I'd be happy with that.

...Hope already fading...

2) RDM could use (but not necessarily needs) a way to get out of the situation where it's overproc'd going into melee.

So a mechanic that exists... only to undo a core mechanic and remove a layer of skill ceiling? Have your final Black/White cast push you over the other's Mana count and even if it procs you won't need to override on Holy/Flare.

Granted, if we went with Rongway's Holy->Flare or Flare->Holy Lance-Mastery-but-for-RDM idea, that skill ceiling component would already be gone, in which case, sure, let's reverse the optimization such that we actually want to go into the combo with both procs up for some extra damage (and a net increase). I just don't think such would need to be a separate action, to be clear; an additional effect tied to Holy/Flare, such as via the Lance Mastery-lite trait, should be plenty.

3) Maybe a resource that builds off your physical ogcds, that you can spend on a physical attack, kinda like a RDM-variation of Shoha. It'd do big potency and it'd look cool.

I don't see how a lack of Shoha-equivalent is a "pain point". Additionally, wouldn't that draw a heavier melee aspect to the job? You've seemed rather opposed to that when anyone else suggests it. Is it just that it's enough flare with little enough unique/novel melee-related thought or uptime attached to it that this idea appeals where most anyone else's hasn't?

4) A nerfed version of Lost Chaincast, that ability is an RDM classic and way too damn fun. That's your level 90 keystone right there.

While "Chainspell" thematically could be an interesting concept if taken into a different direction, Bozja's Lost Chainspell watered down would just be... Lightspeed, minus the MP cost reduction, if it remains on a duration -- or Triplecast, if charge-based.

If we were able to build up to some haste-pumped spell-blending rapid-fire ramping-nuke goodness, on the other hand... That could be plenty unique and impel some maniacal laughter.

5) Upgrading Verthunder and Veraero in a trait at EW launch instead of waiting for patches that end up just doing that anyways... again.

...You're describing a tuning adjustment... The flip side to this is merely that we get a power trait instead of an actual mechanical traits or new skill at some step 82-90, only to then have Verthunder/Veraero nerfed when RDM turns out to be overtuned, basically returning them to their previous potencies and reducing their pre-trait potencies for fun times in synced content...

Let's leave emergency/emergent tuning to tuning patches, rather than muddying a toolkit with redundant tuning knobs.

[Shurrikhan]

Two traits, "lingering winds" and "lingering thunder"

Lingering wind leaves a DOT on the ground where you cast verareo 2
Lingering Thunder leaves a DOT on the targets of Verthunder 2

Visually, I'd probably love it (save for fps drops and/or AoE indicators being cloaked by their VFX).

As a tank, or when working with a tank who won't work around them, though... I'd probably hate it just as much as Shadowflare, Flaming Arrow, or the like.

What if the upgrades only happened while the bar was above 50% So we'd have to pick, do we use the combo NOW, or get a hit or two more in, specially if the upgraded spells have useful bonuses....

I'm a little confused by this. The bar already has to be over 80% to reach Enchanted Redoublement, and thereby the second Holy/Flare as procced by the first in Rongway's Lance Mastery idea.

That does give some food for thought, though. For instance, what if your gauge were less of a "under 80 / 80+" yes/no determiner for whether it's worth starting your combo, and instead simply made that combo stronger (or, at least until a particular cap)?

For instance, what if each Enchanted melee skill consumed up to 25% of your current Mana for added potency and simply rolled over ~half its potency onto your next action? It'd require less bar-watching, as it'd no longer waste 4/5s of the values possible for your gauge (anything under 80|80), but it would have more timing complexity possible, and might even cycle between weak and strong combos (where you put in minimal Mana but still draw out Verflare/Verholy's burst Mana to bounce back or quite nearly max out gauge to get the highest possible potencies from Flare/Holy itself) to optimize those timings.

[ICountFrom0]

I'm a little confused by this. The bar already has to be over 80% to reach Enchanted Redoublement, and thereby the second Holy/Flare as procced by the first in Rongway's Lance Mastery idea.

Taking the original idea and running with it.

What if Aero and Thunder gained in potency with bar height. That's what I was getting at.

If the math was done right, they'd work it out so that you didn't trigger the big burst until you had a bonus to trigger it in, because the damage at 100 would be just good enough to keep it full.

[Shurrikhan]

Taking the original idea and running with it.

What if Aero and Thunder gained in potency with bar height. That's what I was getting at.

If the math was done right, they'd work it out so that you didn't trigger the big burst until you had a bonus to trigger it in, because the damage at 100 would be just good enough to keep it full.

I can only really see that going either of two ways, though: either the bonus is so great that you forgo melee combos (very, very unlikely), or it really just slightly decreases the ppm penalty of overcapping while also making RDM prefer to burn Mana nearer to 100|100 (which in turn makes RDM feel that little bit more sluggish / slow to see its burst potential, and susceptible to conflicting priorities in maxing raid CD windows vs. maximizing its own throughput, neither of which feels particularly good).

I guess I just wonder why you'd most want this, not to say it's a bad idea. Ultimately, it'd be little different from just base tuning on Aero/Thunder, except in that it gains some cool factor in exchange for further back-loading its dps (likely in conflict with raid CD windows). Now, that already seems an even trade to me, and the backloading could be compensated for elsewhere, but I'm just curious what most appeals to you in the concept.