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  1. #161
    Player
    Roeshel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2021
    Posts
    441
    Character
    Kael Yoshim
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Liam_Harper View Post
    It's nothing to do with Adlo, you're saving Recitation... Why blow it on the opener where the extra shield size isn't needed when Reci is a free crit Excog or Indom that can be assigned somewhere more useful during the early fight. If you failed to crit-fish an Adlo, normal spread-adlo is still generally fine.
    I want to know why recit + indom during the fight is better than crit + aldo + DT in the prepull. I don't see "people are not going to die" as a valid reason to not fully mitigate the first raid-wide alone so that no healing is needed. In the first 30s of the fight before the dot reset without a dissipation opener SCH has only 6 ogcds to weave. 3 of them are used for energy drain, 1 for Swiftcast, 1 for Chain Stratagem, 1 for aetherflow. If I have to use recit + indom I can do so only after the dot reset and it will be like this: Bio - Dissipation - ED - Broil - Ruin II - ED - Recit - Ruin II - Indom - ED. And now I will be left without aether stacks for movement for the next 20secs for the sake of obtaining 240 additional cure potency. And this is something which I could have healed in the prepull with shields if I used recit+aldo when I couldn't get one in time.

    My question is why shouldn't you blow up as many ogcds as possible in the prepull when you take into consideration that SCH loses dps when they have to weave without using ED?
    (1)

  2. #162
    Player
    WaxSw's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    657
    Character
    Waxillium Larede
    World
    Twintania
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Roeshel View Post
    I want to know why recit + indom during the fight is better than crit + aldo + DT in the prepull. I don't see "people are not going to die" as a valid reason to not fully mitigate the first raid-wide alone so that no healing is needed. In the first 30s of the fight before the dot reset without a dissipation opener SCH has only 6 ogcds to weave. 3 of them are used for energy drain, 1 for Swiftcast, 1 for Chain Stratagem, 1 for aetherflow. If I have to use recit + indom I can do so only after the dot reset and it will be like this: Bio - Dissipation - ED - Broil - Ruin II - ED - Recit - Ruin II - Indom - ED. And now I will be left without aether stacks for movement for the next 20secs for the sake of obtaining 240 additional cure potency. And this is something which I could have healed in the prepull with shields if I used recit+aldo when I couldn't get one in time.

    My question is why shouldn't you blow up as many ogcds as possible in the prepull when you take into consideration that SCH loses dps when they have to weave without using ED?
    Crit adlo dt means 2 things:

    -1st one you're not getting the full benefit of the crit and the resources you use, adlo is a shield of 375 potency which when crit we could say equals roughly to 1,5x that amount, meaning that the benefit you get from a prepull critdlo with recitation (aoe wise) is 375*1,5=562,5 potency in the form of galvanize (catalyze is not spreadable), if you just save the recitation to be used with indom you'll get 400*1,5=600 potency worth of hp so in terms of healing a recitation indom is better than a prepull recitation adlo with deploy

    -2nd you're losing potential dps, recitation on a gcd saves you from using mp which is meaningless in today's ffxiv as mp management is braindead easy while using it on excog or indom saves you from using 1 AE charge that can be later used in energy drain so 100 potency more or even more healing if needed considering you can later use the AE stack you saved on another heal like excog or SS

    To the question " why shouldn't you blow up as many ogcds as possible in the prepull when you take into consideration that SCH loses dps when they have to weave without using ED?":

    Because dumping resources unneficiently increases your chances of needing to take bigger loses later on the fight like for example being forced to use a gcd heal which is a way bigger loss than using ruin 2 and because using recitation with any action that is not aetherflow tied means that you're very likely to use less EDs over the course of the fight compared to someone who does.
    (4)
    Quote Originally Posted by IttyBitty View Post
    Emnity management is a group responsibility, HP management is a group responsibility, Mitigation is a group responsibility ,DPS is a group responsibility
    Anybody saying "I only want to <x>" just tells me they are lazy and selfish.

  3. #163
    Player
    Rilifane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    1,580
    Character
    Esther Harper
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Roeshel View Post
    I want to know why recit + indom during the fight is better than crit + aldo + DT in the prepull. I don't see "people are not going to die" as a valid reason to not fully mitigate the first raid-wide alone so that no healing is needed. In the first 30s of the fight before the dot reset without a dissipation opener SCH has only 6 ogcds to weave. 3 of them are used for energy drain, 1 for Swiftcast, 1 for Chain Stratagem, 1 for aetherflow. If I have to use recit + indom I can do so only after the dot reset and it will be like this: Bio - Dissipation - ED - Broil - Ruin II - ED - Recit - Ruin II - Indom - ED. And now I will be left without aether stacks for movement for the next 20secs for the sake of obtaining 240 additional cure potency. And this is something which I could have healed in the prepull with shields if I used recit+aldo when I couldn't get one in time.

    My question is why shouldn't you blow up as many ogcds as possible in the prepull when you take into consideration that SCH loses dps when they have to weave without using ED?
    "People are not going to die" is, in fact, a very valid reason to not use it.
    The whole reason for prepull shields etc. is so that you can use expendable resources prepull, when you don't have a target, to minimize healing when you have one. "Expendable" being the keyword and what is and what isn't depends on the fight, the comp and strongly on gear.
    Neutral is pretty much always used prepull because it only buffs GCDs and between two healers, you should be able to avoid GCD healing within the first 2min, even when tackling content first week/ early tier so it's fine to blow it prepull.
    Recit, however, also affects two oGCDs.
    Without it, you still get a spread Adlo, although a bit weaker non-crit but with a fairly highly chance for a crit anyway and you have the option to use one of your fairly strong oGCDs without consuming AE.

    Blowing everything you have prepull isn't always the way to go.
    Outgearing content gives you a lot of leeway in terms of pushing dps, tackling it early tier/ first week doesn't.
    (1)

  4. #164
    Player
    Roeshel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2021
    Posts
    441
    Character
    Kael Yoshim
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by WaxSw View Post
    Crit adlo dt means 2 things:

    -1st one you're not getting the full benefit of the crit and the resources you use, adlo is a shield of 375 potency which when crit we could say equals roughly to 1,5x that amount, meaning that the benefit you get from a prepull critdlo with recitation (aoe wise) is 375*1,5=562,5 potency in the form of galvanize (catalyze is not spreadable), if you just save the recitation to be used with indom you'll get 400*1,5=600 potency worth of hp so in terms of healing a recitation indom is better than a prepull recitation adlo with deploy

    -2nd you're losing potential dps, recitation on a gcd saves you from using mp which is meaningless in today's ffxiv as mp management is braindead easy while using it on excog or indom saves you from using 1 AE charge that can be later used in energy drain so 100 potency more or even more healing if needed considering you can later use the AE stack you saved on another heal like excog or SS

    To the question " why shouldn't you blow up as many ogcds as possible in the prepull when you take into consideration that SCH loses dps when they have to weave without using ED?":

    Because dumping resources unneficiently increases your chances of needing to take bigger loses later on the fight like for example being forced to use a gcd heal which is a way bigger loss than using ruin 2 and because using recitation with any action that is not aetherflow tied means that you're very likely to use less EDs over the course of the fight compared to someone who does.

    You didn't add fey illumination which is cast in the prepull, with it crit aldo + spread > recit indom in terms of shield and cure potencies:

    375 * 1.1 = 412.5 * 1.5 = 618.75 < 400*1,5 = 600

    But I am starting to understand why prepull aldo + recit indom is better than prepull recit aldo + indom. The cure potencies are roughly the same but if you are trying to hold on to AE stacks recit + indom is the better alternative. Recit + indom is basically 600 aoe heal for 100dps loss. If you have to heal 600 cure potency (indom + fey blessing) when you don't have recit, you will end up losing 1 AE and taking the 100dps loss. And even if you reduced the amount of healing needed to 400 by having the extra 200 shield potency recit aldo gives at the start, you will end up using indom + x which is still going to cost you 1 AE stack even with the dps loss.
    (0)

  5. #165
    Player
    Rilifane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    1,580
    Character
    Esther Harper
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    Fey Illumination is actually another skill that is often more beneficial to hold.
    If you have an aoe sequence early into the fight, the 5% reduced magic damage is far superior to 10% more GCD healing prepull.
    It really depends on the fight and while "I don't have a weaving slot for something until x sec" is true for the optimal scenario, it's not the rule. Some fights required healing during the first 15-20s because of multiple aoes in a row or because of heavy tank damage. e6s and e9s had pretty heavy aoe damage early on because they had more than the usual "welcome to savage" aoe at 15s.
    e8s hit the tanks like a truck on steroids and depending on tank comp, you really needed some extre heal early on.

    Using Recit locks you out of using it again for roughly 70s. A lot can happen in 70s. Some fights, like e5s or e7s barely have any raid damage going on, others blast you with it. Same with tank damage.
    If you can use it both prepull and know you're neither going to suffer bigger losses later into the fight nor dump additional responsibility on your co heal - by all means, do it.
    But if you don't know that for sure or if another alignment for it would be better, it's more beneficial to hold it.
    (0)

  6. #166
    Player
    Liam_Harper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    3,470
    Character
    Liam Harper
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Roeshel View Post
    You didn't add fey illumination which is cast in the prepull, with it crit aldo + spread > recit indom in terms of shield and cure potencies:

    375 * 1.1 = 412.5 * 1.5 = 618.75 < 400*1,5 = 600
    Keep in mind when holding Reci Indom you'll still have your regular spread Adlo shield. So it's more like 618.75 vs 1012.5.
    (0)

  7. #167
    Player
    FusionSamurai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    51
    Character
    Rin Hikari
    World
    Lamia
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 60
    TBH, I won't be remotely surprised if they just turn the fairy into an animation for SCH abilities. Its clear they have no idea how to balance it.
    (1)

  8. #168
    Player Anhra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    824
    Character
    Anhra Nefaris
    World
    Omega
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by FusionSamurai View Post
    TBH, I won't be remotely surprised if they just turn the fairy into an animation for SCH abilities. Its clear they have no idea how to balance it.
    Something similar was already pulled off in PvP back then, i think it was during late Stormblood if i recall correctly.

    Eos summon in PvP used to be a instant spell in which the Fairy stayed on the Field depending on the Fae Gauge (Drained 10/every 3 sec or so) and doing passively some healing as usually known, then this got replaced by Seraph Summon, only to be removed again, re-added and then removed once more.
    (0)

  9. #169
    Player
    FoxCh40s's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Posts
    332
    Character
    Source Eldion
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Anhra View Post
    Something similar was already pulled off in PvP back then, i think it was during late Stormblood if i recall correctly.

    Eos summon in PvP used to be a instant spell in which the Fairy stayed on the Field depending on the Fae Gauge (Drained 10/every 3 sec or so) and doing passively some healing as usually known, then this got replaced by Seraph Summon, only to be removed again, re-added and then removed once more.
    If that isn't Scholars story over many expansions, I don't know what is.

    This is exactly what they do to us regularly.
    (3)

  10. #170
    Player
    NobleWinter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    803
    Character
    Winter Gem
    World
    Brynhildr
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    There are so many flavors of dps. Some fast paced, some slow, some proc based and galaxay brained, and some straightforward simple and repetitive. Why does every healer feel the same? There has to be more that can be done to seperate the classes. More to make the role feel meaningful and satisfying beyond pressing one button for a raidwide every 50 seconds. The homy trinity shouldnt exist just to exist if only dps get to feel compelling. All tanks are carbin copies and healers are dumbed down to hell. Something has got to give.
    (1)

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