I really hope than Fandaniel and Zenos are not... (spoilers)

[TheMightyMollusk]

People didn't like Emet-Selch based on two patches. People don't like Zenos based on two expansions. There's a big difference in exposure time there.

[FrogDog]

Fandaniel is the way he is because the his soul crystal used to raise him is damaged, Thus making him unhinged, Only now Elidibus is gone and there is no chance of being raised again can he enact his own will.

Zenos isn't one dimensional. The issue is that we haven't seen the second dimension yet. We have seen glimpses - why is he so powerful that he can scare an unsundered ascian out of his body? Why the vivid dreams of the final days since childhood. We are going to find out the conclusion to his personality in endwalker. Who is he really? Who's sundered soul does he have? Is he even sundered or is he rejoined?

When the sundering happened, the soul of whoever/whatever caused the keening would have been sundered too. Where does that soul now lie. It's likely Zenos.

What people are doing is judging a character halfway through his arc. As someone said above, a lot of people disliked Emet when he was introduced but once his arc was completed they loved him. Judge Zenos when his story is over.

Zenos has had 2 expansions to show his other dimension, it’s gone nowhere. You can’t even compare emet because emet was around for what…1 patch in sb? and then he got ShB where he shined from the start. Meanwhile Zenos has been given SB, then ShB. A majority still aren’t interested. They’ve said they aren’t going to make him sympathetic which while i’m happy about it, that’s probably the only way they could ever make him better. Also, he didn’t scare Elidibus out of his body. Elidibus was already going to leave, even zenos himself says there was no fight. Elidibus had no further use of his body.People are judging a character that already had his arc, in SB. Fact of the matter is Emet was a better antagonist and did it all in much less time than Zenos is taking. Elidibus managed to be a better antagonist in two patches than Zenos ever was.

[dezzmont]

Snip

To pile onto the whole 'judging a character halfway through the arc' bit, it falls into the 'the story gets good later' fallacy: You can't say its unfair to judge a story that has been ongoing for some odd 4 years.

Furthermore, Zenos is as deep as he appears: he is a murderous hedonist who can only obtain pleasure from violence. The questions you raised are not going to change that, and learning that is less of a revelation than an explanation.

Us learning why he is so strong may be thematically important, but it changes literally nothing about the character unless the revelation is of the nature of "He used to be an entirely different character as a literal baby" which still wouldn't alter anything about the story, because learning Zenos had his soul swapped as a baby by Emmet as part of Ascian Experiments or whatever doesn't change the fact that Zenos functionally spent his whole life as a conscious being as a hate filled sociopath. Maybe if they then have this cause Zenos to literally become an entirely new character (possessed by their past self maybe?) it would lead somewhere interesting, but as is it isn't really a dimension to the character as much as trivia.

Compare this to learning about why the WoL is special and so powerful, which DOES change the story and our relationship with the villains we faced and are facing, despite Azem being a totally flat character and getting almost no screentime. They are a character who is as flat as they come, and is yet still a great character because of the impact their reveal had on the story.

And that sorta leads to the greater issue of Zenos not being a good villain to conclude XIV's story. XIV had a lot of themes, but if there is one overarching one, its about how violence is cyclical and the only way to escape it is to recognize the humanity of your enemies. Its thesis is basically 'No one is born evil.' So having the ultimate villain just be someone who was born evil (or who was made evil at a point where they functionally weren't a thinking person) kinda... sucks?

[CaptainLagbeard]

Much like past expansions, the fact that they've built up Zenos and Fandaniel probably means that they're going to be mostly deal with during 6.0. Zenos is very likely going to be the "final boss" of 6.0, much like he was in 4.0 with Stormblood, and Emet-Selch was with Shadowbringers' 5.0.

Fandaniel being an Ascian, and promotional art for the Pandemonium raid features an Ascian... It leads me to think Fandaniel will probably be involved there. Not likely as the final boss. If he is there, I would predict he'll get killed off in the second set of raids to reveal some bigger bad to kill for the last 4 raids.



But hey, at least EdiblebusElidibus can't be the big bad for the 3rd time in a row.

[GDofLevin]

How about Nero? Not Nero from the game. The actual Nero?

[Jettinson]

It took ARR to ShB to finally make me enjoy Elidibus and even then he is not even a character that I deeply feel much.
I envy you lot with Zenos because I see that character a wheel for others to react to.

The good thing about golf club reaper man is that the characters around him know he is a mad person but I best enjoyed thanks of looking at other garleans characters from important figures such Gaius, Varis, Valens etc to even side quests one that joined the Empire (the one captain/leader in Gyr Abania that surrendered himself and gave the people a better treatment compared to other places).

In likeness of XII's Empire where you have multiple types of characters to distinguish.

Other than that, I do not have much hope on what will happen to Zenos, he either gets his fight and die happy or whatever, I prefer looking at the whole picture rather than him or fandaniel.

[Wavaryen]

snip

Even if it was the normal, I still think it was pretty evil. It went well beyond revenge. He made an example out of everyone. His anger and what he thought of life.


But you are right. We don't know what really happens. That is why I said, the winners get to make history how they want it. Even if they are the bad guys.

[dezzmont]

Even if it was the normal, I still think it was pretty evil. It went well beyond revenge. He made an example out of everyone. His anger and what he thought of life.


But you are right. We don't know what really happens. That is why I said, the winners get to make history how they want it. Even if they are the bad guys.

Genghis Khan was an extremely mellow ruler, and there is reason to believe his personal views were equally mellow. For example, the Mongol's religion didn't really... demand conversion, so if you lived in the Mongol Empire there was no religious persecution. He valued the arts and sciences as well as the exchange of ideas, and while it is true he did wipe out some people who resisted, that was... noooooooooot unusual for Empires at the time and if you did surrender to the Mongols you were pretty much just fine. He actually ruled with an extremely light hand.

Like a good example of what he compared to was the Greeks, who were not even an empire but were... rough. The Atheneans were waging war and a neutral city in their way asked to not be a part of the war, and would allow the Atheneans to just go on through. In response to their desire for neutrality the Atheneans burnt down that city state and killed everyone in it. Yikes.

Again, Genghis Khan was special in the grand scheme of history mostly for his success, and having more influence on what the modern world looks like than almost any other Emperor ever on the planet. Most of what people know in the cultural consciousness is a total hatched job against him after the fact that tries to paint him as an especially horrible brute.

This is very common among historical figures that don't get a lot of focus in education. For example, I didn't go into Nero cuz lol space, but it's extremely likely a lot of what we consider 'historical record' about him was a mix of elite Romans not liking him as a reformer, and the fact that Christians turned him into almost a mythological parable. And because Christian religious figures got to gatekeep the historical record of Rome (along with Islamic scholars, who actually did it first and had to give the record to Christians because they plain old forgot it), despite 'losing' pretty much all the time, they got to write the history there.

You didn't learn about the Pax Mongolia because most English Speaking countries try to mythologize history as civilization and culture mainly being a creation of Greeks, then Romans, then the Church. So it isn't even that the winners get to make history per-say. It is more that the purposes of most history education at the non-university level is to train you to believe in the narrative of your given country. So you only know about the Mongol Empire(s) (because they were so successful and stable they had like 12) second hand from cultural reference as it being terrible.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Fandaniel being an Ascian, and promotional art for the Pandemonium raid features an Ascian... It leads me to think Fandaniel will probably be involved there. Not likely as the final boss. If he is there, I would predict he'll get killed off in the second set of raids to reveal some bigger bad to kill for the last 4 raids.

The ascian on the pandaemonium art is Lahabrea…How did you get that fandaniel would be involved there lmao.

[CaptainLagbeard]

The ascian on the pandaemonium art is Lahabrea…How did you get that fandaniel would be involved there lmao.

Yea It's Lahabrea's glyph... But he should be rather dead after HW...

And if there's Ascians involved in there, it doesn't have to be just a single one... And currently, the only Ascian that's known about really is Fandaniel.