I really hope than Fandaniel and Zenos are not... (spoilers)

[Wavaryen]

For Zenos to be a successful 'pure evil' character he would need to inflict some serious lasting harm and trauma upon the protagonists. He has failed to do so and repeatedly walks away whenever granted the opportunity to do as much. So he simply falls flat as a character and seems to be have been created purely as an excuse to dismantle Garlemald without forcing the Scions or Warrior of Light to deal with the fact that an attempt to invade the place would displace and slaughter a great many innocent people.

I don't consider evil characters who only ever kill antagonists to be particularly compelling. Sephiroth was as much as a threat and thorn in the side to Shinra as he was to Cloud and his companions. Especially given what he does to a certain character...

Zenos has simply fallen flat for me. I had high hopes given the promise of an unapologetic villain but at this point I'm expecting him to do a heel face turn and side with the Warrior of Light for no other reason than 'rule of cool'. I'll be surprised if that doesn't happen.

I can sorta agree with this. I hope he goes out with a bang. I want him to do something that shakes the warrior of light to the core. I really hope he does something amazing in edgewalker that will leave a scar so deep that the hero can never really get over it.

[Raikai]

Betting all my coins that the final boss will be the thing that caused the Final Days. A Lavos-esque entity.

[TheMightyMollusk]

Nope, that's pure evil. Because anything less than that isn't pure evil. I never said that pure evil was smart - of course it isn't. But that's the bar we're measuring our dear boy Zenos by: his stupid obsession with doing nothing but evil for no reason.

So you're saying a "pure" evil person couldn't be deliberate about it. They couldn't make a plan that would do little immediately but would cause greater suffering later. They have no motives beyond basically being a violent dick.

Because frankly, Zenos doesn't fit your definition of pure evil. He has a motive. It's a very flat and stupid one, but he does have one. He's not going out and eating puppies and stealing from children for the hell of it. But on the other hand, he's never shown to do anything remotely "good" either. He's a selfish, dead-eyed sociopath.

And that's what defines evil, to me. The selfish "I'm gonna get mine, screw everyone else" attitude that, taken to its logical conclusion, is antithetical to progress, cooperation, society, and civilization as a whole. It doesn't matter who they have to hurt or kill, as long as they get what they want in the end. By that definition, Zenos is pure evil, because he simply does not care about anything but his own desires. He wants a good fight, and he's more than willing to burn the world to get it.

[Wavaryen]

So you're saying a "pure" evil person couldn't be deliberate about it. They couldn't make a plan that would do little immediately but would cause greater suffering later. They have no motives beyond basically being a violent dick.

Because frankly, Zenos doesn't fit your definition of pure evil. He has a motive. It's a very flat and stupid one, but he does have one. He's not going out and eating puppies and stealing from children for the hell of it. But on the other hand, he's never shown to do anything remotely "good" either. He's a selfish, dead-eyed sociopath.

And that's what defines evil, to me. The selfish "I'm gonna get mine, screw everyone else" attitude that, taken to its logical conclusion, is antithetical to progress, cooperation, society, and civilization as a whole. It doesn't matter who they have to hurt or kill, as long as they get what they want in the end. By that definition, Zenos is pure evil, because he simply does not care about anything but his own desires. He wants a good fight, and he's more than willing to burn the world to get it.

Yup, and I think part of him knows that he is going to die by the hero of light also. That is what makes him so crazy, It is not about winning or losing to him. It is about that moment. That feeling, the stage he wants to set. He does not care how many corpses he must walk over. He does not care about the outcome. That is pretty twisted and evil. He does not value life, or his own life at all.


I also don't find his motive that stupid as well. He is a hunter. Why do people Sport hunt wild and dangerous beast? for the thrill. So he is just a thrill seeker.

How can anyone say that he is not pure evil.

[Juzjuzz]

"pure evil" imo is very vague. Even Darth Sidious shows that if you want to be in the dark side, you have to suffer. If that character suffers when he does evil things, is he just "pure evil" because he smiles when he kills ppl ?

[Wavaryen]

"pure evil" imo is very vague. Even Darth Sidious shows that if you want to be in the dark side, you have to suffer. If that character suffers when he does evil things, is he just "pure evil" because he smiles when he kills ppl ?

I mean sure it is a perspective thing. To me pure evil is someone who does not value life, and is selfish enough to bring misery for self gain.


To me life is the most valid and treasure thing we have. When someone else devalues it for gain, or takes it away. That is pure evil in my eyes. Each person has can set a standard to what they consider "pure" evil is... But this guy fits the bill for me. He is ruthless in his hunt for pleasure.


Out of all the evil people who have in this game. I feel like this guy is amazing. Since he showed up in Stormblood it has been an amazing ride.

[KizuyaKatogami]

My problem with Zenos, is that he’s fine as an antagonist for a single expansion. He was good in SB. He got the ending he wanted. The problem is them bringing him back, and having him be one of the last main characters of the Hydy/Zodi arc. This is an arc that’s been around since 1.0. Yet they’re going to have a character who only joined in 4.0 be the finale of the story. That’s what bugs me. Especially when his whole purpose/goal has nothing to do with the arc period. The fact we lost actual good antagonists like Emet and Elidibus and Varis but Zenos is still around bugs me immensely. He’s gotten more screentime than Elidibus, who really should’ve been the main focus of ShB but instead got 2 patches lol.

[SpanishInkwehsitor]

I’m betting it’s actually Hydaelyn.

[dezzmont]

The entire concept of something or someone being 'objectively pure evil' is a super loaded one, you first need to define your code of morality to do it, and who you describe as 'pure evil' says a lot more about you and your values than them, even in cases where its hard to argue the person isn't evil or at least did terrible things.

Lets take Genghis Khan, from that list a page back. Yes, he killed a lot of people in conquest, but that is par for the course in terms of history, even targeting towns that refused to surrender isn't unusual at all (the Greeks did it ALL the time). As a ruler, Genghis Khan was pretty damn mild and created a golden age historians call the Pax Mongolia, with increased trade and cultural exchange in Asia Europe that resulted in the continents taking the shape they are today (ex: Russia would not be Russia without him). He also created a lot of concepts we consider important modern day, such as the of a Diplomat and diplomatic immunity (have fun getting executed if your delivering diplomatic messages the receiving party decides they don't like before then) and the importance of pluralism (the Mongol Empire forced scholars of different faiths to get along and collaborate), and the concept of torture as unethical.

Like a lot of 'historical villains' he got a hatchet job done because a lot of what you learn in any non-college history is actually propaganda designed to sell you on the 'story' of your country and justify its culture, and part of our cultural identity is to value this perceived cultural legacy of Greece, which Genghis Khan didn't really care about and actively undermined by, again, forcing members of different cultures to cooperate not just for the sake of his empire, but to study philosophy and science and history and seperate it from myths countries told themselves.

Does that make him a good or bad dude? I dunno, there were a whole lot of bodies because he was uniquely succesful as an emperor. But he wasn't an especially terrible emperor worthy of being considered 'uniquely evil.' He is less a Zenos than say... a Gaius.

The thing that makes me feel that Zenos falls flat is because, unlike real people, he IS just a flat character. And flat characters are fine, good stories HAVE flat characters and villains. In Stormblood he worked fine because he served not really as the main villain from a story perspective, but as a causal factor for why other people might become villains despite not being fundamentally terrible people. But as his arc grows longer it becomes more clear that he doesn't fit in with the greater XIV 'canon' of villains, as villains either turn out to be more dimensional than we think even if they can't be redeemed, or are short 'one and done' villains who mostly just exist as a utilitarian character who explains the reason people are the way they are (Ex: Varro).

Even Fandanial has more thought put into why they are the way the are: they are tired of constantly dying and being revived by the other Ascians and just want it all to STOP.

[TheRealQuah]

.....

Fandaniel is the way he is because the his soul crystal used to raise him is damaged, Thus making him unhinged, Only now Elidibus is gone and there is no chance of being raised again can he enact his own will.

Zenos isn't one dimensional. The issue is that we haven't seen the second dimension yet. We have seen glimpses - why is he so powerful that he can scare an unsundered ascian out of his body? Why the vivid dreams of the final days since childhood. We are going to find out the conclusion to his personality in endwalker. Who is he really? Who's sundered soul does he have? Is he even sundered or is he rejoined?

When the sundering happened, the soul of whoever/whatever caused the keening would have been sundered too. Where does that soul now lie. It's likely Zenos.

What people are doing is judging a character halfway through his arc. As someone said above, a lot of people disliked Emet when he was introduced but once his arc was completed they loved him. Judge Zenos when his story is over.