Need help / advice for this tank roulette situation

[Goji1639]

Where DPS are concerned I think "you pull it, you tank it" is a completely fair mindset for any tank. DPS aren't the ones who have to actually manage large pulls, so they don't get to make that call in any capacity.

Where Healers are concerned, my general stance is "If you pull it and bring it to me then I'll tank it, but you'd better be able to heal through it."

As a rule I'll generally go with whatever the Healer wants, since pull size impacts them the most; but they need to ask for bigger pulls and/or bring the enemies to me. If I'm Rescue pulled I'll just run back to where I was without picking up the adds.

[LittleArrow]

Where DPS are concerned I think "you pull it, you tank it" is a completely fair mindset for any tank. DPS aren't the ones who have to actually manage large pulls, so they don't get to make that call in any capacity.

Where Healers are concerned, my general stance is "If you pull it and bring it to me then I'll tank it, but you'd better be able to heal through it."

As a rule I'll generally go with whatever the Healer wants, since pull size impacts them the most; but they need to ask for bigger pulls and/or bring the enemies to me. If I'm Rescue pulled I'll just run back to where I was without picking up the adds.

Thank you for your response, I'm honestly interested in both sides of this argument. I do have confusion with this mindset, and maybe you can clarify this for me.

When I tank, I literally push a handful of buttons. My tank stance, sprint, aoe combo (2 buttons) and cycle through some mitigation cooldowns. I'm literally not managing anything other than the absolute bare minimum of my class. My DPS'ers are the ones who dictate how long I can stay up with their dps, and the healer dictates how long the party can survive the encounter with their heals. I honestly see zero skill or responsibility outside literally the base minimum of my class in what I do when I tank.

I think this might be a differing in opinion, in which case I deeply apologize if I'm coming off rude. I really want to try to understand the mindset, so if you could clarify I would greatly appreciate it

[Goji1639]

Thank you for your response, I'm honestly appreciative of both sides of this argument. I do have confusion with this mindset, and maybe you can clarify this for me.

When I tank, I literally push a handful of buttons. My tank stance, sprint, aoe combo (2 buttons) and cycle through some mitigation cooldowns. I'm literally not managing anything other than the absolute bare minimum of my class. My DPS'ers are the ones who dictate how long I can stay up with their dps, and the healer dictates how long the party can survive the encounter with their heals. I honestly see zero skill or responsibility outside literally the base minimum of my class in what I do when I tank.

I think this might be a differing in opinion, in which case I deeply apologize if I'm coming off rude. I really want to try to understand the mindset, so if you could clarify I would greatly appreciate it

The tanks responsibility is managing cooldown's. If DPS is slow and I have to blow too many strong CDs on one pull the subsequent pulls are going to be smaller; unless the healer thinks he can keep me up on a no CD wall to wall pull in an instance like Snowcloak or Stone Vigil.

DPS have the exact same job whether it's 4 enemies or 100 of them; they don't have to adjust anything based on the size/speed of pulling, so them trying to dictate the size/speed of pulls isn't acceptable.

If you're not noticing much responsibility based on the size of a pull while tanking, then you're probably just putting a lot of that on the Healer. The Healer has the biggest workload adjustment and the most responsibility based on the size of a pull, so it's good to listen to what they would prefer. DPS need to kind of just mind themselves and stay in line, though.

[LittleArrow]

The tanks responsibility is managing cooldown's. If DPS is slow and I have to blow too many strong CDs on one pull the subsequent pulls are going to be smaller; unless the healer thinks he can keep me up on a no CD wall to wall pull in an instance like Snowcloak or Stone Vigil.

DPS have the exact same job whether it's 4 enemies or 100 of them; they don't have to adjust anything based on the size/speed of pulling, so them trying to dictate the size/speed of pulls isn't acceptable.

If you're not noticing much responsibility based on the size of a pull while tanking, then you're probably just putting a lot of that on the Healer. The Healer has the biggest workload adjustment and the most responsibility based on the size of a pull, so it's good to listen to what they would prefer. DPS need to kind of just mind themselves and stay in line, though.

Thanks for the response. I agree with the healer having the heaviest burden, thus I always check with the healer the size of pulls to take as a tank. I think I'll have to just agree to disagree as I do not see anything you've typed to warrant literally punishing another player based on pulling.

I do see that this mentality is one that I will have to deal with going forward and I'll need to adjust my gameplay. However, I cannot find it acceptable to willfully allow another player die, despite the fact that I can prevent it, purely based off principle. The sole job of the tank is to keep aggro, not teach other players lessons, imo. If we wipe due to extra mobs, I will apologize for my inability to offset the pull and ask for others not to pull more. Still, I would -never- punish a player for something that I can at least attempt to handle on my own and if the healer is capable.

I am happy to see in the few responses I've seen this thread that this 'punishment mentality' is not the majority opinion. I'm also happy that even though the times I've encountered this behavior have been so extremely distressing, it hasn't been the majority.

I am glad to have a better idea as to what's going on the other side, even if I firmly disagree with it.

[Goji1639]

Thanks for the response. I agree with the healer having the heaviest burden, thus I always check with the healer the size of pulls to take as a tank. I think I'll have to just agree to disagree as I do not see anything you've typed to warrant literally punishing another player based on pulling.

I do see that this mentality is one that I will have to deal with going forward and I'll need to adjust my gameplay. However, I cannot find it acceptable to willfully allow another player die, despite the fact that I can prevent it, purely based off principle. The sole job of the tank is to keep aggro, not teach other players lessons, imo. If we wipe due to extra mobs, I will apologize for my inability to offset the pull and ask for others not to pull more. Still, I would -never- punish a player for something that I can at least attempt to handle on my own and if the healer is capable.

I am happy to see in the few responses I've seen this thread that this is not the majority and I'm also happy that even though the times I've encountered have been so extremely distressing, it hasn't been the majority.

Handle it however you want, but just understand that DPS running ahead and pulling is rude behavior and might illicit a rude response. Anyone should be capable of politely asking for bigger pulls, and if the tank and healer both agree then it'll happen. A DPS unilaterally deciding he's going to add stress to both the tank and healer by running ahead and pulling is out of line.

Tanks not turning the other cheek when party members are intentionally being rude isn't some pervasive issue with tanks, however; it should be expected.

[Breakbeat]

Where DPS are concerned I think "you pull it, you tank it" is a completely fair mindset for any tank. DPS aren't the ones who have to actually manage large pulls, so they don't get to make that call in any capacity.

Where Healers are concerned, my general stance is "If you pull it and bring it to me then I'll tank it, but you'd better be able to heal through it."

As a rule I'll generally go with whatever the Healer wants, since pull size impacts them the most; but they need to ask for bigger pulls and/or bring the enemies to me. If I'm Rescue pulled I'll just run back to where I was without picking up the adds.

Being versatile and adaptable is not only preferable, but objectively better than all of that above.

Could you imagine any other game or sport or team venture where if a mistake is made, the leader of the team just abandoned the offending team member and let them suffer on their own?

- Baseball: You missed that catch. No one else will run for the ball; you go get it.
- Basketball: You didn't get that rebound. Well, now no one will pass to you, nor will anyone defend you.
- Flying an Airbus A380: Well, Billy, you really messed up by missing an item on the pre-flight checklist. Guess you get to fly solo to Bangkok.

Having steadfast rules that you cannot adapt or change or modify to the group is not the mark of a good player, nor a good leader. The best leaders (read: any good leader) is able to adapt to the situation. Someone else pulled a mob? Taunt it. Mobs you pulled getting out of hand? Fix it. Someone not responding to chat or suggestions? Do your best and use every ability at your disposal to save the group and continue the encounter. These activities are the mark of an excellent player.

[Arrius]

Having steadfast rules that you cannot adapt or change or modify to the group is not the mark of a good player, nor a good leader. The best leaders (read: any good leader) is able to adapt to the situation. Someone else pulled a mob? Taunt it. Mobs you pulled getting out of hand? Fix it. Someone not responding to chat or suggestions? Do your best and use every ability at your disposal to save the group and continue the encounter. These activities are the mark of an excellent player.

Sure, and this is all fine and dandy.

But you have to remind yourself: This is a environment where you likely won't see said people again after the run - Taking the high ground won't affect them since they will be gone after 15-20 minutes and you used up your energy for nothing.

Pug groups are considered a 'Wild West' of communication, coordination and skill, with non-tanks standing in front of mobs only to get cleaved, doing their rotations wrong and doing far less damage than their should, not utilizing positionals, not avoiding AoE, and the list goes on.
Tanks and healers usually see such things more, since their perception includes the enemies and the group, and take notice when the clear times of mobs are higher than usual. And usually that means extra work for them.
And maybe ... they are just tired by this. Tired of them being responsible for the group and their falling outs, even though they did not do anything wrong themselves.

Perhaps that's why the tanks put up a stone-faced appearance and employ the 'You pull you tank' attitude - They have enough that the DPS 'monkeys' play around and not being accountable for their actions.
Same reason you always see folks wondering about the lack of tanks, or healers in many MMO's. They are still there, but they don't want to deal with pugs anymore and instead keep themselves within their friend/fc/guild circle for their roulettes. They want their effort to be respected.

And those who DO still run pug roulettes, well ... some tend to be more heavy-handed on their approach, as mentioned above, to get the job done.

Cause and effect. It did not come around from nowhere, it developed over time.
Do we want to be like that, though? Probably not. But many are just done with this.

[Goji1639]

Being versatile and adaptable is not only preferable, but objectively better than all of that above.

Could you imagine any other game or sport or team venture where if a mistake is made, the leader of the team just abandoned the offending team member and let them suffer on their own?

- Baseball: You missed that catch. No one else will run for the ball; you go get it.
- Basketball: You didn't get that rebound. Well, now no one will pass to you, nor will anyone defend you.
- Flying an Airbus A380: Well, Billy, you really messed up by missing an item on the pre-flight checklist. Guess you get to fly solo to Bangkok.

Having steadfast rules that you cannot adapt or change or modify to the group is not the mark of a good player, nor a good leader. The best leaders (read: any good leader) is able to adapt to the situation. Someone else pulled a mob? Taunt it. Mobs you pulled getting out of hand? Fix it. Someone not responding to chat or suggestions? Do your best and use every ability at your disposal to save the group and continue the encounter. These activities are the mark of an excellent player.

First, I'm not really talking about mistakes. If a DPS accidentally takes aggro from a nearby group or wandering enemy that's not an issue; I'll pick it up and we'll move on. DPS pulling on purpose, however, are being intentionally disruptive. That's not something the tank or group should have to 'adjust' to; if the DPS WANTS to be the tank then I'll let him try.

Even still, letting the DPS die once isn't 'abandoning' him. He'll have a quick realization that he's not the tank, get raised and from there I'll resume tanking stuff for him and the Healer will resume healing him; at least until the next time he gets it in his head that he's the tank.