This game has serious free-rider problems and it's getting worse. A suggestion.

[Seera1024]

People here really need to stop fixating on problems, trying to find ways to criticize ideas and instead should try to find alternate ways to solve problems.

Consider this, Instead of punishing the bottom 20 based on a random metric, which seems to be what everyone seems to be against, let's make it simpler:

Rewards stay the same for everybody. If you are new, a sprout, a free rider, or a "new person on your fifth time or whatever" doing this content, the rewards will be the same for everybody.

But, BUT! If you are a player that go above and beyond you get extra stuff like someone here already said. Maybe 2mil extra mettle, maybe extra platinum coins, maybe extra exp, maybe a higher personal chance to drop the hair or the mount (Say the normal chance is 2%, but you personally get 5% for doing better). No fanfare, no big letters on the screen, just a simple message in your chat that you get extra X for a job well done.

Maybe in expert roullete if you distinguish yourself you get extra tomestones by the end of the run, that would just mean that the average joe would continue finishing capping their tomestones for the week after 5 days like normal, but a person that is more competent finishes in 3 days. That goes hand in hand with what Yoshi says about not wanting to force players to log in everyday. Play competently, finish stuff for the week faster and get more free time from the game.

How the developers would calculate this threeshold, i don't know man, they have the numbers and logs from pretty much dozen of runs of DR and roulettes done every week. Just pick the average damage that each class does and set that the bar for each class individually, anything above the average get's the bonus, it really isn't that hard. No WOW bullshit of timed clears, where faster is better or something like that, just do more damage than the average of your class in that content, simple, easy.

Again. For everyone else, no matter if you are a free rider, sprout, whatever, everything would be the same. People that go above and beyond get a little bonus.
I don't see how this would be a problem for anyone, but these are the forums.

Then you get greedy DPS standing in bad AoE's going healer adjust, I want to be in the top whatever it takes to get that extra reward.

Or the new player in the group that keeps messing up mechanics and it throwing the group off getting kicked because they don't want to risk their extra reward if the impact of the new player ends up leading to a wipe or overall lower DPS of other members.

There is no way to reward or punish a group of players based on a set of criteria that won't lead to problems for players that would jeopardize a player's spot on the list of who gets rewarded or punished.

[Vocal_Night]

This is the fiddly bit though eh?

Find a way to do this without encouraging people to yell at others for their performance affecting their own. Average damage? "OMG pull more I need the numbers", average "effective" heals? "just stand in the AOE's I need valid heals, don't use ANY healing cooldowns". Once you start making "goals" aside from "finish the content" people will do everything and anything to make sure they hit those goals and hit them as fast as possible.

Congrats on doing what i said in the beggining of my post, pointing out problems without offering solutions.
But sure, we can be more specific.

"average "effective" heals? "just stand in the AOE's I need valid heals, don't use ANY healing cooldowns"."

I never mentioned healing in my post. healers would be awarded by damage, not heals. Easier to deal it and solves your problem.

Average damage? "OMG pull more I need the numbers"

Easy. Only damage in bosses count.
I'll do you a solid and offer 2 extra solutions.

1- Count only the average damage done on the last boss.
2- take the damage done to the 3 bosses, do an average, compare with the base average set.

[Vocal_Night]

Then you get greedy DPS standing in bad AoE's going healer adjust, I want to be in the top whatever it takes to get that extra reward.

And if they die is their fault. A player that goes above average know that a dead DPS does no DPS.

Or the new player in the group that keeps messing up mechanics and it throwing the group off getting kicked because they don't want to risk their extra reward if the impact of the new player ends up leading to a wipe or overall lower DPS of other members.

Please explain how someone dying would impact the damage of other people, like for example the tank or the other dps.
A healer would lose a GCD to ress them, but considering how many healers dps in this game the average for healer damage would be in the ground.

There is no way to reward or punish a group of players based on a set of criteria that won't lead to problems for players that would jeopardize a player's spot on the list of who gets rewarded or punished.

I think you misread my post. No one is getting punished in this scenario. The rewards would be the same if you did an average or bad run. And the rewards are based on the individual, not the group.

[Seera1024]

I never mentioned healing in my post. healers would be awarded by damage, not heals. Easier to deal it and solves your problem.

Introduces another problem:

Players keep making mistakes, reducing the time the healer has to DPS. Healers complain that they don't get the good rewards as often as DPS due to this. Healers start leaving non-essential players dead for longer because they don't want to reduce their rewards or fall into a punishment zone.

Again, no solution to this problem will be immune from players becoming more toxic towards mistakes other players make when the performance of others can affect an individual player's performance.

The tank that messed up on an attack and the boss turned right before doing the tank buster and killed half the party, potentially causing a wipe if the healer got caught? There goes someone's performance, potentially to below threshold - for something entirely not his fault.

This would likely lead to fewer players playing tanks or healers as the personal responsibility for those roles are higher. Meaning if they make mistakes, their mistakes affect the party a lot more, usually in a negative way. This makes queue times longer for DPS players.

The only solution to this problem is to leave it at the status quo. Kick those who are griefing by intentinally AFK'ing or not participating with the intent of getting a carry or find a group of friends to run content with.

[Krotoan]

Congrats on doing what i said in the beggining of my post, pointing out problems without offering solutions.
But sure, we can be more specific.

My point being that we have MANY suggestions for solutions and none of them address all the problems that are inherent in a "performance rewarding" system.

I never mentioned healing in my post. healers would be awarded by damage, not heals. Easier to deal it and solves your problem.

It was an example of a possible "average performance" for a class.. it doesn't need to be that.

Easy. Only damage in bosses count.
I'll do you a solid and offer 2 extra solutions.

1- Count only the average damage done on the last boss.
2- take the damage done to the 3 bosses, do an average, compare with the base average set.

Then people will only want to have partners who can buff their damage, demand greater uptime on their own rotations at the sacrifice of the other players (you think black mages don't move NOW.. hooboy) and then will dump on healers and tanks for downtime.

I'm not here to nitpick apart absolutely every solution though, just saying the problem ISN'T the implementation, it's the nature of the people you're giving this reward to. You need to solve for any possible pressure that could be put on other party members and considering it's a 4 player dungeon with classes that have strengths and weaknesses and party contribution factors, that isn't simple.

[Fellgon]

this still going on?

wow... here is the title of a vid to watch by Josh Strife Hayes: Casual VS Hardcore MMO Players

I found it interesting, and does point out what kind of hardcore player some in here are wanting to be. enjoy ^^

thanks for the video reference, this youtuber its great! so true whats he say in video!

[Seera1024]

And if they die is their fault. A player that goes above average know that a dead DPS does no DPS.



Please explain how someone dying would impact the damage of other people, like for example the tank or the other dps.
A healer would lose a GCD to ress them, but considering how many healers dps in this game the average for healer damage would be in the ground.



I think you misread my post. No one is getting punished in this scenario. The rewards would be the same if you did an average or bad run. And the rewards are based on the individual, not the group.

1. Greedy DPS dying due to being greedy:

Then you get arguments in the party of how the healer was supposed to keep that DPS alive or the healer fussed at for not being able to keep them alive. That DPS dying to being greedy could then lead to a DPS check not being met, wiping the party.

2. Individual peformance affects the party

As above, too many dead DPS could mean a DPS check doesn't get hit.

The tank makes a mistake in a dungeon and dies right before the tank buster. Healer gets aggro and dies to tank buster. DPS not able to kill boss. Party wipes.

New tank in a relatively low dungeon hasn't quite broken the habit of spinning the boss. There goes the melee DPS's ability to their positionals on a consistent basis and possibly causing caster DPS to have to move if the boss throws an AoE in the direction of the tank and the tank happened to be running between boss and caster DPS at the time. There goes their DPS as they have to user lower DPS moves in order to cast on the go in lower level dungeons, if they even have a skill to do that with yet. Or gamble that the hit won't kill them and sit in the AoE.

3. Rewards lead to greedy play styles.

If you noticed, I said rewarded OR punished. I was addressing both those arguing against punishments and those arguing for rewards as I've seen both mentioned in this thread. So I think it is you who misread my post?


Edit: Not that I personally wouldn't mind being rewarded for doing above average and wouldn't be selfish when playing. I just know we already have issues with players not liking the players that are already not performing at the level they want them to - even if that level is far above what the average player would expect from someone.

[Vocal_Night]

If you noticed, I said rewarded OR punished. I was addressing both those arguing against punishments and those arguing for rewards as I've seen both mentioned in this thread. So I think it is you who misread my post?

Maybe i did, it's quite late. My bad.

Edit: Not that I personally wouldn't mind being rewarded for doing above average and wouldn't be selfish when playing. I just know we already have issues with players not liking the players that are already not performing at the level they want them to - even if that level is far above what the average player would expect from someone.

I'm not here to nitpick apart absolutely every solution though, just saying the problem ISN'T the implementation, it's the nature of the people you're giving this reward to. You need to solve for any possible pressure that could be put on other party members and considering it's a 4 player dungeon with classes that have strengths and weaknesses and party contribution factors, that isn't simple.

See, i'm still of the opinion that people that go above and beyond, not greedy DPS (that are not actually good, they just think they are), not people that rage and don't have the basic decency with people. You know the people i'm talking about, the silent majority that play their job at a decent level and that say gg ty for run, or just stay quiet and play their job, the mid tier raiders, people that would be grateful for an extra 50 tomestones at the end of their expert run. You know, those people.

I'm against penalizing people for not playing at the most optimal, but i think we as a community should at least agree and try to find a way to give some reward/bonus, no matter how little, to good players in casual/normal content.

[Krotoan]

See, i'm still of the opinion that people that go above and beyond, not greedy DPS (that are not actually good, they just think they are), not people that rage and don't have the basic decency with people. You know the people i'm talking about, the silent majority that play their job at a decent level and that say gg ty for run, or just stay quiet and play their job, the mid tier raiders, people that would be grateful for an extra 50 tomestones at the end of their expert run. You know, those people.

Those people.. are generally happy to just get their reward at the end and unfortunately, like so many other restrictions, laws, and regulations, cannot have nice things because of the other people.

I'm against penalizing people for not playing at the most optimal, but i think we as a community should at least agree and try to find a way to give some reward/bonus, no matter how little, to good players in casual/normal content.

And while I agree those people DESERVE rewards, it's very hard to find a way to do that without encouraging those other people to abuse the system and others.

[Nestama]

Then you get greedy DPS standing in bad AoE's going healer adjust, I want to be in the top whatever it takes to get that extra reward.

Easy fix to that is to make Twice/Thrice Come Ruin a penalty for getting hit by avoidable damage.

Specifically this version where your DPS is penalised as well.